How Empty Was the Tomb?

Discussion about the New Testament, apocrypha, gnostics, church fathers, Christian origins, historical Jesus or otherwise, etc.
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neilgodfrey
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A response to Mark Goodacre's article:

Post by neilgodfrey »

To read the gospels as records of historical traditions or as literature sourced from Scripture?

Mark Goodacre approaches the details of the "empty tomb" from a historical perspective (*see below), that is, on the assumption that the account originated from historical reminiscence or tradition of some sort and was subsequently elaborated out of apologetic interests. I prefer to approach the text from a literary perspective since the literary sources of the Passion narrative in the Gospel of Mark are relatively evident while the provenance of the gospels -- knowledge of which is a sine qua non for any valid historical research into sources -- is unknown.

Mark's knowledge of Jerusalem tombs?

Goodacre's discussion centres on the physical layout of first-century Jerusalem tombs but I think that concern should be balanced against the apparent absence of detailed knowledge of the historical settings and geography and Temple dimensions in the earliest gospel in particular. Mark's confusions with geography are well-known, his account of the "cleansing of the Temple" presupposes a temple of the dimensions of the smaller "pagan" temples in the Greco-Roman world, and his portrayal of Pharisees and synagogues throughout Galilee at the time has also been questioned. Mark certainly imagined a tomb large enough for persons to enter but we cannot be sure he was thinking of a kokhim tomb.

Goodacre's observation that Matthew, Luke and John add to Mark's description of the tomb to stress its newness and lack of prior use is quite reasonable. This elaboration is coupled with apologetic elaborations of the resurrected body of Jesus itself. The emphasis is "not from some kind of theological adornment, as if an unsullied tomb is the appropriate home for Jesus' body".

Other corpses present the need for a "precise location"?

I am less persuaded by what Goodacre refers to as Mark's "drawing attention to ... precise locations" in the tomb "in order to make clear there was no confusion about which body was which".

One possibility Goodacre raises is that the bodies of the two bandits crucified with Jesus might also have been put to rest in the same tomb. Yet surely Mark does not allow for any such confusion in his narrative: after all, Jesus is said to have been prematurely dead so the reader has to imagine those two lingering on their crosses while Jesus' body alone is taken down for burial.

Another detail Goodacre raises is the young man's question: "Why are you looking for the living one among dead people?" Surely, however, that question can just as logically be asking the women why they had come to a cemetery to look for Jesus. Is there any reason to prefer that the reference is to looking for Jesus among other bodies in the tomb?

Goodacre also stresses the "preciseness" of the young man's directions to indicate where, exactly, Jesus' body had been placed. I myself, though, do not see precision in those "directions". If the young man was sitting on the right side then I would have thought that the reader's imagination would be to think of him pointing opposite to the left side when he says, "See where they laid him." Or maybe others think of the young man pointing to the bench on which he himself is sitting. There is nothing "precise" about the directions. Even less so is there any precision when the women at the moment of burial are said to "see where the body was laid". So they noted which tomb was the correct one? Again, precision is not a feature of the narrative.

Explaining Mark's Tomb through the same sources for the preceding scenarios of the Passion

Many commentators have noted the Scriptural sources for Mark's story of the death and burial of Jesus. There is no need to repeat the many allusions to Psalms 22, 31, 38, 69 and 109; Isaiah 13, 50, 53; Jeremiah 15; Lamentations 2; Amos 8; Genesis 29; Exodus 26 and Leviticus 21 and Deuteronomy 21 and Joshua 10; 2 Chronicles 16; Daniel 10; Judges 13-16; . . . (from Kee and Girard et al.)

In such a context it should not surprise anyone to learn that there is one likely allusion:

Isaiah 22:16 (LXX) (where the sepulchre is a metaphor for the temple) thou hast here hewn thyself a sepulchre, and madest thyself a sepulchre on high, and hast graven for thyself a dwelling in the rock

In Isaiah the "tomb hewn out of a rock" is a metaphor for the Temple. It is not a simple tomb or grave (taphos) but a "memorial tomb" or "monument" -- "hewn out" -- as in Isaiah 22:16 LXX. (Hanhart, The Open Tomb)

With this metaphor in mind (and recall the earlier cryptic associations of the temple with the body of Jesus - Mark 14:58 and 15:29, 38) when the young man is said to be seated on the right side it is not a stretch to treat the position as an indicator of the position of power and victory (Psalm 110:1) even in heaven. The temple, after all, depicts God's place in heaven. Goodacre rejects such associations because he does not consider the association of the tomb with the temple through the author's apparent reference to Isaiah 22:16.

The Temple metaphor further allows for people to enter and look around without any need to call upon Mark's knowledge of Jerusalem kokhim tombs despite his otherwise vague knowledge of the region. (Though other stories from Greco-Roman era also spoke of tombs in other parts of the world large enough for people to enter.)

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* Goodacre begins with reference to the "difficulty" of "contemporary historical imagination" and subsequently speaks of "historical possibility", "what is ultimately unknowable to the historian" and "judgments about the historicity of the narratives".

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mlinssen
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The living Jesus - only in Thomas

Post by mlinssen »

neilgodfrey wrote: Thu Jul 01, 2021 6:18 pm Other corpses present the need for a "precise location"?

Another detail Goodacre raises is the young man's question: "Why are you looking for the living one among dead people?" Surely, however, that question can just as logically be asking the women why they had come to a cemetery to look for Jesus. Is there any reason to prefer that the reference is to looking for Jesus among other bodies in the tomb?

Luke 24:5 ἐμφόβων (Terrified) δὲ (then) γενομένων (having become) αὐτῶν (of them) καὶ (and) κλινουσῶν (bowing) τὰ (the) πρόσωπα (faces) εἰς (to) τὴν (the) γῆν (ground), εἶπαν (they said) πρὸς (to) αὐτάς (them), “Τί (Why) ζητεῖτε (seek you) τὸν (the) ζῶντα (living) μετὰ (among) τῶν (the) νεκρῶν (dead)?

Fascinating catch.
Mark has no mention of any living Jesus, nor does Luke, nor does Matthew (and I'll ignore John 6:57 because he highly likely comes after)

Matthew, however, has a quickie:

Matthew 27:63 λέγοντες (saying), “Κύριε (Sir), ἐμνήσθημεν (we have remembered) ὅτι (how) ἐκεῖνος (that) ὁ (-) πλάνος (deceiver) εἶπεν (said) ἔτι (while) ζῶν (living), ‘Μετὰ (After) τρεῖς (three) ἡμέρας (days) ἐγείρομαι (I arise).’

That is a superfluous statement really, to add that someone said something while living - did he fumble this in there to explain Luke's awkward and unique statement in this regard?

There is a fine reference to a living Jesus, of course, and a much clearer one than the metaphorical living bread of John:

0. these-ones are the(PL) word who/which be-hiding have IS who/which be-living say they and did he write they viz. Didymos Judas Thomas

It's not that I am hellbent on seeing Thomas everywhere in Luke - it is just that he really is all over the place in Luke.
Six logia in total that refer to either a living IS or Father
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Ken Olson
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Re: A response to Mark Goodacre's article:

Post by Ken Olson »

neilgodfrey wrote: Thu Jul 01, 2021 6:18 pm I am less persuaded by what Goodacre refers to as Mark's "drawing attention to ... precise locations" in the tomb "in order to make clear there was no confusion about which body was which".

One possibility Goodacre raises is that the bodies of the two bandits crucified with Jesus might also have been put to rest in the same tomb. Yet surely Mark does not allow for any such confusion in his narrative: after all, Jesus is said to have been prematurely dead so the reader has to imagine those two lingering on their crosses while Jesus' body alone is taken down for burial.

Another detail Goodacre raises is the young man's question: "Why are you looking for the living one among dead people?" Surely, however, that question can just as logically be asking the women why they had come to a cemetery to look for Jesus. Is there any reason to prefer that the reference is to looking for Jesus among other bodies in the tomb?

Goodacre also stresses the "preciseness" of the young man's directions to indicate where, exactly, Jesus' body had been placed. I myself, though, do not see precision in those "directions". If the young man was sitting on the right side then I would have thought that the reader's imagination would be to think of him pointing opposite to the left side when he says, "See where they laid him." Or maybe others think of the young man pointing to the bench on which he himself is sitting. There is nothing "precise" about the directions. Even less so is there any precision when the women at the moment of burial are said to "see where the body was laid". So they noted which tomb was the correct one? Again, precision is not a feature of the narrative.
I think this is a good point. Mark (the Evangelist) does not give precise enough details for us to conclude that he was familiar with the architecture of first century Jerusalem tombs. I don't think there's anything particular or peculiar enough in his description to require that he was describing a first century Jerusalem tomb as opposed to a tomb in some other part of eastern Mediterranean region, and I don't think the other evangelists do either.

This came to my attention when I was researching claims that the tomb in Church of the Holy Sepulcher is the original tomb of Jesus. It's often argued that it fits the description of the tomb in the gospels or, at least, is not excluded by them. This sets the bar very low - there are dozens or possibly hundreds of known tombs outside of what we think would have been the limits of first century Jerusalem that more or less fit, or would not be excluded by, the descriptions in the gospels. The main criterion is fits is that it's near Jerusalem.

To be fair, Goodacre is probably making the case to people that do assume the evangelists knew about first century Jerusalem tombs and showing what would follow even granting their assumptions.

Best,

Ken
mbuckley3
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Re: How Empty Was the Tomb?

Post by mbuckley3 »

Ken : "[Nothing] in his description to require that he was describing a C1 Jerusalem tomb as opposed to a tomb in some other part of eastern Mediterranean region".

Given Neil's point that we should not assume 'Mark' had any particular knowledge of Judea and its customs (ossuaries !), here's a vivid description of what a walk-in tomb looked like. It's from C2 Phlegon of Tralles' Mirabilia, ch.1, the Philinnion ghost/revenant story :

"..it seemed best for us to go to the tomb [τάφος] and open it to see whether the girl's body was on the shelf [κλίνη] or whether the niche [τόπος] was empty. The girl hadn't even been dead six months yet. When we opened the vault [καμάρα] where all the deceased family members were placed, on some of the shelves we saw bodies lying, on others from olden times we saw bones, but on the shelf where Philinnion had been placed for burial [ταφήναι], we found only two things lying there : the guest's iron ring and a gold-plated wine cup...We were amazed and shocked..."
(adapted from Rosenmeyer's translation).

A very different 'look' to that of a new, unused tomb...

If Proclus' version of the story is relevant, it was set in Amphipolis, Macedonia, during the reign of Philip II. Curiously, ossuaries were not unknown at the 'real' Amphipolis, if the 'Brasidas' ossuary has been correctly identified.
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neilgodfrey
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Re: How Empty Was the Tomb?

Post by neilgodfrey »

One does have to wonder what sort of "precise directions" would ever be necessary to locate a newly slain body placed in any sort of tomb only the evening before.
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mlinssen
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Re: How Empty Was the Tomb?

Post by mlinssen »

neilgodfrey wrote: Fri Jul 02, 2021 5:33 pm One does have to wonder what sort of "precise directions" would ever be necessary to locate a newly slain body placed in any sort of tomb only the evening before.
One would think that more than two days had passed...

Goodacre's phrasing is odd, on second sight

It is a superfluous comment, given Mark 15:7 ἡ (-) δὲ (And) Μαρία (Mary) ἡ (-) Μαγδαληνὴ (Magdalene) καὶ (and) Μαρία (Mary) ἡ (the mother) Ἰωσῆτος (of Joseph)d ἐθεώρουν (were watching) ποῦ (where) τέθειται (He was laid).

Looking closer, the person doesn't give any directions at all whatsoever:

Mark 15:6 ὁ (-) δὲ (And) λέγει (he says) αὐταῖς (to them), “Μὴ (Not) ἐκθαμβεῖσθε (be amazed). Ἰησοῦν (Jesus) ζητεῖτε (you seek), τὸν (the) Ναζαρηνὸν (Nazarene), τὸν (the One) ἐσταυρωμένον (having been crucified). ἠγέρθη (He is risen)! οὐκ (Not) ἔστιν (He is) ὧδε (here)! ἴδε (Behold) ὁ (the) τόπος (place) ὅπου (where) ἔθηκαν (they laid) αὐτόν (Him).
7 ἀλλὰ (But) ὑπάγετε (go), εἴπατε (say) τοῖς (the) μαθηταῖς (disciples) αὐτοῦ (of Him) καὶ (and) τῷ (-) Πέτρῳ (to Peter) ὅτι (that) Προάγει (He goes before) ὑμᾶς (you) εἰς (into) τὴν (-) Γαλιλαίαν (Galilee); ἐκεῖ (there) αὐτὸν (Him) ὄψεσθε (will you see), καθὼς (as) εἶπεν (He said) ὑμῖν (to you).”

"Behold" is the usual translation for ἴδε, but it occurs tremendously often in LukeMatthew. Mark? A dozen times at best, and only a few of those literally mean "Behold" or "Look", most of them mean "look" (LOL) or "Listen here, fella(s)"

3:34, 13:1, that's it. In those verses there is something to look at, in the others there isn't necessarily something to look at.
The person could be very well saying "go see" (the place where he was laid), and he very likely is because Mark is the author and he told us that they knew the spot where that was only a few verses ago

Goodacre wants to say something with his comment, and it is likely a test that is inherent to that what is underlying his article: no one is able to read these days, we just quickly scan some and the hastily move on to the next half-hearted job
andrewcriddle
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Re: A response to Mark Goodacre's article:

Post by andrewcriddle »

Ken Olson wrote: Fri Jul 02, 2021 5:43 am
neilgodfrey wrote: Thu Jul 01, 2021 6:18 pm I am less persuaded by what Goodacre refers to as Mark's "drawing attention to ... precise locations" in the tomb "in order to make clear there was no confusion about which body was which".

One possibility Goodacre raises is that the bodies of the two bandits crucified with Jesus might also have been put to rest in the same tomb. Yet surely Mark does not allow for any such confusion in his narrative: after all, Jesus is said to have been prematurely dead so the reader has to imagine those two lingering on their crosses while Jesus' body alone is taken down for burial.

Another detail Goodacre raises is the young man's question: "Why are you looking for the living one among dead people?" Surely, however, that question can just as logically be asking the women why they had come to a cemetery to look for Jesus. Is there any reason to prefer that the reference is to looking for Jesus among other bodies in the tomb?

Goodacre also stresses the "preciseness" of the young man's directions to indicate where, exactly, Jesus' body had been placed. I myself, though, do not see precision in those "directions". If the young man was sitting on the right side then I would have thought that the reader's imagination would be to think of him pointing opposite to the left side when he says, "See where they laid him." Or maybe others think of the young man pointing to the bench on which he himself is sitting. There is nothing "precise" about the directions. Even less so is there any precision when the women at the moment of burial are said to "see where the body was laid". So they noted which tomb was the correct one? Again, precision is not a feature of the narrative.
I think this is a good point. Mark (the Evangelist) does not give precise enough details for us to conclude that he was familiar with the architecture of first century Jerusalem tombs. I don't think there's anything particular or peculiar enough in his description to require that he was describing a first century Jerusalem tomb as opposed to a tomb in some other part of eastern Mediterranean region, and I don't think the other evangelists do either.

This came to my attention when I was researching claims that the tomb in Church of the Holy Sepulcher is the original tomb of Jesus. It's often argued that it fits the description of the tomb in the gospels or, at least, is not excluded by them. This sets the bar very low - there are dozens or possibly hundreds of known tombs outside of what we think would have been the limits of first century Jerusalem that more or less fit, or would not be excluded by, the descriptions in the gospels. The main criterion is fits is that it's near Jerusalem.

To be fair, Goodacre is probably making the case to people that do assume the evangelists knew about first century Jerusalem tombs and showing what would follow even granting their assumptions.

Best,

Ken
One argument for the Holy Sepulchre site is that it was outside the walls of Jerusalem in the time of Tiberius and near the middle of Aelia Capitolina (see Melito)

Andrew Criddle
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Ken Olson
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Re: A response to Mark Goodacre's article:

Post by Ken Olson »

andrewcriddle wrote: Sun Jul 04, 2021 10:27 am One argument for the Holy Sepulchre site is that it was outside the walls of Jerusalem in the time of Tiberius and near the middle of Aelia Capitolina (see Melito)

Andrew Criddle
Andrew,

Stephan Goranson brought up Melito up thread and I linked to my earlier post in a different thread where I deal briefly with the arguments for authenticity of the Church of the Holy Sepulcher site based on the location of the walls of Jerusalem and on Melito of Sardis (points 1 and 3):

viewtopic.php?p=60854#p60854

I can expand on those answers if you like.

Best,

Ken
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Re: A response to Mark Goodacre's article:

Post by andrewcriddle »

Ken Olson wrote: Sun Jul 04, 2021 10:48 am
andrewcriddle wrote: Sun Jul 04, 2021 10:27 am One argument for the Holy Sepulchre site is that it was outside the walls of Jerusalem in the time of Tiberius and near the middle of Aelia Capitolina (see Melito)

Andrew Criddle
Andrew,

Stephan Goranson brought up Melito up thread and I linked to my earlier post in a different thread where I deal briefly with the arguments for authenticity of the Church of the Holy Sepulcher site based on the location of the walls of Jerusalem and on Melito of Sardis (points 1 and 3):

viewtopic.php?p=60854#p60854

I can expand on those answers if you like.

Best,

Ken
I think I would probably agree that Melito's in the midst of the city is rhetorical and means no more than somewhere within the city limits. I do have difficulty thinking that Melito would have used this phrase if he believed Jesus died outside the walls of Aelia Capitolina.

Andrew Criddle
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Ken Olson
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Re: A response to Mark Goodacre's article:

Post by Ken Olson »

andrewcriddle wrote: Sun Jul 04, 2021 11:00 am
I think I would probably agree that Melito's in the midst of the city is rhetorical and means no more than somewhere within the city limits. I do have difficulty thinking that Melito would have used this phrase if he believed Jesus died outside the walls of Aelia Capitolina.

Andrew Criddle
Andrew,

I'm not clear on what you're assuming about Melito. Are you assuming he visited Aelia Capitolina before he wrote Peri Pascha (or at all), and if so, why?

Could he not have written Peri Pascha based on his knowledge of the gospels?

Best,

Ken
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