Carry your satyr in my way - said Dionysus

Discussion about the New Testament, apocrypha, gnostics, church fathers, Christian origins, historical Jesus or otherwise, etc.
gryan
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Re: Carry your satyr in my way - permanent erection and ejaculation

Post by gryan »

mlinssen wrote: Thu Jul 01, 2021 2:26 am
What we have here is, first of all, a painful example of overlooking something that is right in front of your nose. I have studied Thomas in detail for 2 to 3 years now, and it never dawned me that the sower is exactly that: a sower!
It is all meant metaphysically, even though people like Davies can't wrestle themselves free from their xtian programming, and only take it literally - but the parable is a clear demonstration of a penis that "comes", and ejaculates.
The first verb is the same verb that Simon uses in the last logion when he asks that Marian "come (forth) in our belly" because "women aren't worthy of life" - and people even get outraged over the alleged misogyny of it, whereas someone should stand up for the poor pathetic disciples LOL. But I digress.
The sower comes in his hands, that apparently are empty - and then he casts; a movement that displaces something far away from himself, just like the fisher does, and it is used in 7 other logia. And only the good earth produces Fruit, and logion 20 will teach us that only earth that is worked upon returns on the investment.
And that is the main process in Thomas, that of creation, of showing seeds, as a way to find fertile ground - the Sowing is a mere means to the goal of locating fertile ground, and then that ground has to be worked upon. It is a repetitive process, a continuous one, and that is why Thomas calls to "Carry your satyros in my way", and that can only mean that he has a permanently erect penis - metaphysically speaking
Yes, I think you are on to something, symbolically speaking. I think if there are any universals in the experience of being a human male, one of them is masturbation to ejaculation. Surely there is some underlying wisdom in the tradition of the rite of circumcision as relates to how to deal with the desire to self stimulate. Likewise when in the NT we see the cross as a symbolic circumcision of "passion and desire", an allusion to masturbation is not far afield. But in the field of Christian spiritual disciplines, it is nearly impossible to find any explicit mention of wisdom through conscious masturbation practice. For this, some go to yoga that mixes in some Christian wisdom such as here: https://www.aypsite.org/T47.html
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mlinssen
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Re: Carry your satyr in my way - permanent erection and ejaculation

Post by mlinssen »

gryan wrote: Thu Jul 15, 2021 1:35 am
Yes, I think you are on to something, symbolically speaking. I think if there are any universals in the experience of being a human male, one of them is masturbation to ejaculation. Surely there is some underlying wisdom in the tradition of the rite of circumcision as relates to how to deal with the desire to self stimulate. Likewise when in the NT we see the cross as a symbolic circumcision of "passion and desire", an allusion to masturbation is not far afield. But in the field of Christian spiritual disciplines, it is nearly impossible to find any explicit mention of wisdom through conscious masturbation practice. For this, some go to yoga that mixes in some Christian wisdom such as here: https://www.aypsite.org/T47.html
The Romans put the taboo on everything sexual, and it permeates Churchianity.
I find that yoga site rather dull and superficial, and I missed the Christian wisdom mixed in between. Why don't you have a look at

https://www.mindbodygreen.com/0-25921/t ... where.html

No Christian wisdom there either LOL.
Thomas doesn't advertise physical masturbation, and naturally it is nothing Christian - it is Egyptian although all cultures had affinity with sex.
I'm going to bump the Hurtado findings, by the way
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mlinssen
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Ignore

Post by mlinssen »

Can't delete, unfortunately
Last edited by mlinssen on Thu Jul 15, 2021 5:57 am, edited 1 time in total.
gryan
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Re: Carry your satyr in my way - permanent erection and ejaculation

Post by gryan »

mlinssen wrote: Thu Jul 15, 2021 2:57 am
gryan wrote: Thu Jul 15, 2021 1:35 am ...I missed the Christian wisdom mixed in between....
The teacher at AYP quotes lots of Christian scripture. Here is an example:

https://www.aypsite.org/16.html
Last edited by gryan on Thu Jul 15, 2021 8:34 am, edited 1 time in total.
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mlinssen
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How Hurtado "upped his numbers"

Post by mlinssen »

Here is how Hurtado "upped his numbers":

The possible "hits" in all of John:

BOOK OF John
Chapter 19 The Soldiers Mock Jesus
6 Therefore when the chief priests and the officers saw Him, they cried out saying, “Crucify! Crucify!” Pilate says to them, “Take Him yourselves and crucify Him, for I find no guilt in Him.” (3 x)
10 Therefore Pilate says to Him, “Do You not speak to me? Do You not know that I have authority to release You, and I have authority to crucify You?”
15 So they cried out, “Away with Him, away! Crucify Him!” Pilate says to them, “Shall I crucify your King?” The chief priests answered, “We have no king except Caesar.” ( 2 x)
16 So then, he delivered Him to them, that He might be crucified. Therefore they took Jesus.
17 And bearing His own cross, He went out to the place called the Place of the Skull, which in Hebrew is called Golgotha,
18 where they crucified Him, and with Him two others, on this side and on that side, and Jesus in between.
19 And Pilate also wrote a title and put it on the cross. And it was written, JESUS OF NAZARETH, THE KING OF THE JEWS.
20 Therefore many of the Jews read this title, for the place where Jesus was crucified was near the city, and it was written in Hebrew, in Latin, and in Greek.
23 Then the soldiers, when they crucified Jesus, took His garments and made four parts, to each soldier a part, and also the tunic. Now the tunic was seamless, woven from the top all throughout.
25 Now His mother, and the sister of His mother, Mary the wife of Clopas, and Mary Magdalene, had been standing by the cross of Jesus.
31 Therefore the Jews, because it was the Preparation, so that bodies would not remain on the cross on the Sabbath - for that Sabbath was a high day - asked Pilate that their legs might be broken and they might be taken away.
32 So the soldiers came, and indeed they broke the legs of the first, and of the other having been crucified with Him.
41 Now there was a garden in the place where He was crucified, and in the garden a new tomb, in which no one had yet been laid.

That is, sum total:

6 - 3 x crucify
10 - 1 x crucify
15 - 2 x crucify
16 - 1 x crucified
17 - 1 x cross
18 - 1 x crucified
19 - 1 x cross
20 - 1 x crucified
23 - 1 x crucified
25 - 1 x cross
31 - 1 x cross
32 - 1 x crucified
41 - 1 x crucified

Here is the text from Hurtado regarding P66 (https://era.ed.ac.uk/bitstream/handle/1 ... sequence=1):

Let us first address the question of origins. Our most important evidence, and certainly the earliest, is provided by the instances of this device in some very early Christian manuscripts. 21 We may begin with Papyrus Bodmer II (∏ 66 ), the extant portion of a codex of the Gospel of John (chapters 1–14 relatively well preserved, the rest of John through chapter 21 in very fragmentary condition), and dated palaeographically to ca. 200 ce. 22 In this manuscript the noun staurow (three instances) and at least seven uses of forms of the verb staurov are written in abbreviated forms, and with the tau and rho of these words written as a compendium. In each case, the statement in which the noun or verb appears refers to Jesus’ cross/crucifixion. 23

3 + 7 makes 10, right?
What is in the footnote number 23?

23 K. Aland identified instances of stauros abbreviated and with the tau-rho in John 19:19, 25, 31, and abbreviated forms of stauros with this device in John 19:6 (three), 15 (two), 16, 18 (“Neue neutestamentliche Papyri II,” NTS 10 [1963–64] 75, and further possible cases in 19:17, 20. Cf. instances identified by Martin and Barns in the 1962 augmented and corrected edition of chapters 14–21 of ∏ 66 : forms of staurow in 19:19, 25, plus another one restored as “des plus probables” in 19:18, and forms of staurov in 19:6 (two), 16, 18, plus a proposed restoration of another instance in 19:20. My own examination of the photos published in their 1962 edition enabled me to verify clear instances in abbreviated forms of staurow in 19:19, 25, and 31, and in forms of staurov in 19:6, 15, 16, and 18.

Cleverly, Hurtado puts the details in the footnotes, where exact traceability to names and numbers quickly becomes impossible.
Ona side note, the difference between the two highlighted phrases is unclear to me.
But let's try to reconstruct what Hurtado squeezes in the footnotes:

Aland:

19:6 (3 x) - the first 2 words sit in one big lacuna with nothing discernable, and Hurtado omits to state this. The third word is only very partially visible, also due to being in a lacuna, and again Hurtado omits to state this
19:15 ( 2 x) - check, 2 clearly visible staurograms
19:16 - check, 1 clearly visible staurogram
19:17 (RESTORATION) - by stating this, Hurtado appears to suggest that he will distinguish between visible staurograms and what has been conjectured - which is not true at all. On a side note, there is a lacuna here indeed
19:18 - check, 1 clearly visible staurogram
19:19 - check, 1 clearly visible staurogram
19:20 (RESTORATION) - by stating this, Hurtado appears to suggest that he will distinguish between visible staurograms and what has been conjectured - which is not true at all. On a side note, there is a lacuna here indeed
19:25 - a lacuna again, again not mentioned by Hurtado. There is nothing at all visible here
19:31 - check, 1 clearly visible staurogram

Sum total: 10, plus a possible another 2 by conjecture - according to Hurtado.
In reality? Only 6 clearly visible staurograms, and the remainder is by conjecture!!!

Martin & Barns:

19:6 (2 x)
None in 19:15?!
19:16
19:18
None in 19:19?!
19:20 by conjecture
None in 19:31?!

I wonder what adding Martin & Barns does, they omit 3 clearly visible staurograms.
The biggest surprise is that Hurtado has checked all these fragments himself, and comes to the following conclusion:

My own examination of the photos published in their 1962 edition enabled me to verify clear instances in abbreviated forms of stauros in 19:19, 25, and 31, and in forms of staurow in 19:6, 15, 16, and 18

It is more than devious that he doesn't give any numbers here, this is either incredible incompetence or intentional fraud. There are two alleged staurograms completely invisible in the P66 John 19:6, with the third having only the superlinear and the bulge of the Rho, yet Hurtado counts 19:6 among his "forms of staurow", and it is ambiguous whether the earlier adjective of "clear instances" only applies to "abbreviated forms of stauros", or also extends to "forms of staurow"

Is this exemplary scholarship? No, far from, This is fumbling very important data into the footnotes and happily cherry-picking those numbers from their sum total that suit you, and to mention those in the main body of text. What is worst, Hurtado intentionally omits his own numbers when he states his own research, so he can go with basically any number, while he even seems reasonable for not counting the STATED restorations from Aland, while he hides 4 other lacuna that do get counted by Aland

It seems that we'll have another discussion about that F-word...
gryan
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Re: The staurogram on Herod's coin

Post by gryan »

mlinssen wrote: Thu Jul 01, 2021 4:03 am Needless to say, I have to link to the 2014 discussion here involving the 37 BCE Herod coin depicting a staurogram

viewtopic.php?p=9489#p9489

I know of its existence since a few days - and really don't know what to make of it, let alone in combination with what I claim with regards to Thomas
That image on the coin something to wonder about. I had not pondered the staurogram at all until your study of it brought it to my attention. So, thanks for that.

On a different note: Are you aware of the argument that in gThomas, the staurogram is placed meaningfully in the middle of the text as a whole? See this author:

"The text is folded at saying 55 so that saying 54 touches saying 56, just as the prologue is joined with saying 114. Make the left and the right of the text as one, joining each saying with its corresponding verse down through each of the sayings.

The top of the scroll is joined to the bottom of the scroll, and the right is joined to the left. Each saying is interpreted by its corresponding saying at the opposite end of the body." https://www.angelfire.com/dc/universali ... ledge.html

This same author points out a similarity to the Ankh. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ankh

And the same author suggests that the staurogram is a symbol of the spine of a human body, and of subtle energetic enlightenment.
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mlinssen
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Re: The staurogram on Herod's coin

Post by mlinssen »

gryan wrote: Sat Jul 17, 2021 1:48 am
mlinssen wrote: Thu Jul 01, 2021 4:03 am Needless to say, I have to link to the 2014 discussion here involving the 37 BCE Herod coin depicting a staurogram

viewtopic.php?p=9489#p9489

I know of its existence since a few days - and really don't know what to make of it, let alone in combination with what I claim with regards to Thomas
That image on the coin something to wonder about. I had not pondered the staurogram at all until your study of it brought it to my attention. So, thanks for that.

On a different note: Are you aware of the argument that in gThomas, the staurogram is placed meaningfully in the middle of the text as a whole? See this author:

"The text is folded at saying 55 so that saying 54 touches saying 56, just as the prologue is joined with saying 114. Make the left and the right of the text as one, joining each saying with its corresponding verse down through each of the sayings.

The top of the scroll is joined to the bottom of the scroll, and the right is joined to the left. Each saying is interpreted by its corresponding saying at the opposite end of the body." https://www.angelfire.com/dc/universali ... ledge.html

This same author points out a similarity to the Ankh. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ankh

And the same author suggests that the staurogram is a symbol of the spine of a human body, and of subtle energetic enlightenment.
You're welcome gryan. There are many more "staurograms" on coins in the decades before and after that, and it is assumed that it represented "tetrarch". Some coins even have the rho mirrored

I know angelfire, but what he claims here is rubbish. Here is the scan of the leaf from the Codex, the only extant version of this Thomasine logion that we have:

https://ccdl.claremont.edu/digital/coll ... ha/id/2871

Line 8 from the bottom

Imagine the Gospel of Thomas is a long scroll that is unraveled. The top and the bottom of the scroll are held respectively in your right and left hand. Imagine the scroll is wrapped around your back. The center of the text is stretched across your back and your spine. Bring your right hand and your left hand together in front of you, connecting the top and the bottom of the scroll together in each hand.

That at least puts your quote about the scroll into perspective, as it is a codex of course.
There are 20 papyrus leaves to Thomas. The first starts halfway, the last ends at three quarters. The stirogram is near the bottom of page 11: you do the math LOL - more than 10 pages preceding it, and 9 following it

The Ankh is widely discussed but it clearly is not that, neither in any of the 13 occurrences in the Nag Hammadi Library, nor in any of the 9 (not 13) occurrences in P66 and P75. There is no such thing in P45 unless you conj(ect)ure one, which Hurtado did, also without telling. And I even counted one where only the starting s is visible...

[EDITED 2021-07-24
I made a mistake, and a big one. As it happens, there are TWO versions of P45's Matthew 25:41, one large fragment of the left half of the page, and 5 smaller ones that make up about 1/3rd of the right half of the page.
Here is the full story:

With regards to P45, there is no comment to the CSNTM manuscript and fragment other than the footnote to it: https://images.csntm.org/Manuscripts/GA ... _BP_I).pdf


4 The seventh line of text is missing the beginning piece of papyrus, which had at least a letter on it. Since Kenyon’s photography, the piece has been folded over onto the back side which covers up the final two letters on that side.



Yet a photograph can be seen in https://www.jstor.org/stable/42614085, it is added on page 17/17, right after the Conclusion

What is the matter? There are two leaves here to Matthew 25:41ff. The photograph contains the large left half of the leaf, the CSNTM image contains 5 fragments that make up some of the right half.
I have photoshopped both pictures in to one for now, and it can be seen at https://ibb.co/bJz3xxz

My apologies, this is really embarassing.
The photograph / the larger fragment is missing from CSNTM, and it appears that it never made it into Chester Beatty either: https://chesterbeatty.ie/assets/uploads ... xt-Opt.pdf doesn't have it.
I knew that the leaf with Matthew 25:41-26-39 was kept in Vienna, but I never knew that THERE ARE TWO DIFFERENT LEAVES OF THE SAME MATTHEW 25:41ff SECTION.
Trismegistos has the P45 info (https://www.trismegistos.org/tm/detail.php?quick=61826) and the split collection on the bottom right but that's it

Everyone makes it appear as if there is only one version of the P45 papyrus leaf with Matthew 25:41, but that is not the case. I hope that such is clear now, and I will pass the word around, and I do hope that such will lead to annotations and comments being made

Anyway. Long story short: there's a stirogram there indeed, Matthew 26:2, line 14 on the large left fragment. It says S[TR]NA, and the stirogram is damaged at the essential point: the cross-section of both letters
]
Last edited by mlinssen on Sat Jul 24, 2021 6:24 am, edited 1 time in total.
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mlinssen
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All occurrences of staur... in P75 (Mater Verbi)

Post by mlinssen »

I have traversed Mater Verbi (P75) now, for all occurrences of cross and crucif-.
Should take anyone no more than 5-10 minutes this way

What follows is the English text, including chapters and verses, for Luke alone: the papyrus doesn't contain more than Luke and John, and given the fact that John doesn't have anything on these two words until chapter 19, combined with the fact that the papyrus ends at John 14, it is Luke alone.
At the end of each verse there is the identification for the corresponding papyrus as catalogued by the Vatican, followed by the line number on the papyrus.
Following that is a notation of the literal appearance of the word(s), where staurograms or stirograms are indicated by [TR] - in square brackets. Superlinear strokes are indicated by an underscore at the start and end

The main site is https://digi.vatlib.it/view/MSS_Pap.Han ... ter.Verbi); go there and then select each papyrus leaf as they appear at the bottom

BOOK OF Luke
Chapter 9 The Ministry of the Twelve
23 And He was saying to all, “If anyone desires to come after Me, let him deny himself, and let him take up his cross every day, and let him follow Me. 1A.11r - 8 _S[TR]ON_
Chapter 14 Jesus Heals a Man with Dropsy
27 Whoever does not carry his cross and come after Me is not able to be My disciple. 1B.10r - 4 _S[TR]ON_
Chapter 23 Jesus Before Pilate
21 But they were crying out, saying, “Crucify! Crucify Him!” 2A.5v - 6 STAUROU STAUROU
23 But they were urgent, asking with loud voices for Him to be crucified. And their voicesb were prevailing. 2A.5v - 12 STAURWTHNAI
26 And as they led Him away, having laid hold on Simon, a certain man of Cyrene coming from the country, they put upon him the cross, to carry it behind Jesus. 2A.5v - 21 _STRON_
33 And when they came to the place called The Skull, there they crucified Him, and the criminals, one on the right, and one on the left. 2A.5v - 37 STRWSAN
Chapter 24 The Resurrection
7 saying, ‘It behooves the Son of Man to be delivered into hands of sinful men, and to be crucified, and the third day to arise.’” 2A.6v - 25 _S[TR]WTHNA_I
20 and that our chief priests and rulers delivered Him up to the judgment of death, and crucified Him. 2A.7r - 17 STAURWSAN

Summarising that via Chapter and verse numbers followed by leaf/ line number only, here is the result of that:

9:23 1A.11r - 8 _S[TR]ON_
14:27 1B.10r - 4 _S[TR]ON_
23:21 2A.5v - 6 STAUROU STAUROU
23:23 2A.5v - 12 STAURWTHNAI
23:26 2A.5v - 21 _STRON_
23:33 2A.5v - 37 STRWSAN
24:7 2A.6v - 25 _S[TR]WTHNA_I
24:20 2A.7r - 17 STAURWSAN

Of the 3 ligatures, the first and last look much like a stirogram and the middle one looks like a staurogram. All in all, there is little consistency of anything
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mlinssen
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ALL Stirograms and staurograms in Greek and Coptic

Post by mlinssen »

Well,

that was then and now is now, and a full LSJ search has lead me to στερρός: Stiff

Check the Commentary logion 55 if interested, which contains all staurograms from Greek Christian texts, pictures of them and hyperlinks to their MS, as well all stirograms from Coptic Chrestian texts with all that too.
For the avid reader, here is the summary:
All_10.png
All_10.png (233.01 KiB) Viewed 118 times
and
All14.png
All14.png (229.11 KiB) Viewed 118 times
Guess ahead which are from where!
I found a new one, in Sinaiticus no less:
StaurogramSinaiticusRevelations11-8.png
StaurogramSinaiticusRevelations11-8.png (830.43 KiB) Viewed 118 times
https://www.codexsinaiticus.org/en/manu ... 59-11-9-11

It certainly is doctored, the question just is to which extent. Hurtado doesn't mention it, FWIW - and he "clearly saw" 3 staurograms in big fat lacunae so Lawd knows he would have mentioned this one if he had dared (and known)
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Re: Carry your satyr in my way - permanent erection and ejaculation

Post by Leucius Charinus »

mlinssen wrote: Thu Jul 01, 2021 2:26 am
Thomas calls to "Carry your satyros in my way", and that can only mean that he has a permanently erect penis - metaphysically speaking
Satyr ....... = σάτυρος (translit. sátyros)
Satirist ..... = σατυριστής

Are these words related? What is the Greek word for "satire" ?

Was Thomas a satirist? (e.g. My yoke is "Chrestos")
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