Jesus = Dionysus = Zeus

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mlinssen
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Jesus = Dionysus = Zeus

Post by mlinssen »

In the past days I have read quite a few works, one of which is

Dionysus and Politics
Constructing Authority in the Graeco-Roman World
Edited By Filip Doroszewski, Dariusz Karłowicz


I would almost like to quote the entire book here, but let's start somewhere:

(David Hernández de la Fuente)

Among all the gods of ancient religion that stood out in the syncretic theology of Late Antiquity, Dionysus became the clearest example of the figure of ‘God the son of God’, a saviour figure who mediated between both worlds. This god of many functions and invocations will have a final resurgence in Late Antiquity. At this time, Dionysus undergoes a two-fold transformation. On the one hand, Dionysus will be modelled with greater emphasis as a god of salvation in the hereafter, especially due to his connection with the mysteries and the evident comparison with Christ. In the first part of this chapter, therefore, we aim to examine the development of Dionysus as a philosophical god, mediator between the intelligible and the material worlds, the divine and the human spheres. The myth of Dionysus Zagreus, as told and interpreted by the Neoplatonists, will provide a frame for the metaphysical, ethical and even aesthetical relevance of this god in Late Antiquity

(...)

Greek literature of the imperial era reflects a new sort of Dionysism, between religion, philosophy and politics, already from the time of the Second Sophistic with the speech that Aelius Aristides dedicated to Dionysus, or Lucian’s pages on the conquest of India by this god. Many other Greek writers dealt with the theme of Dionysus, which also became fashionable after certain rulers were identified with him (from Mark Antony to Galerius) in Roman times. Hence, at this time, it was possible for a poet like Nonnus of Panopolis to praise in an epic a god that in earlier times was not so propitious for this genre. Dionysus could be eulogised as a conqueror - an Alexander - who civilises the peoples, at the same time that he was commended as a saviour in line with the monarchs named Soter or according to late antique spirituality. This ‘new’ Dionysus was halfway between a religious and a political figure, as we shall see. This vision of the god is connected to his Neoplatonic interpretation, key to the mythical allegories with which this philosophical school, the true ideological ‘engine’ of Late Antiquity, symbolises divine knowledge.

I am astonished by the enormously overwhelming (sic) amount of parallels between Dionysus and Jesus. The cult of the former permeates the entire classical world for more than a millennium, even peaking around the time that Christianity got formalised

Indeed, the presence of Dionysus and his myths in third- and fourth- century funerary art is also very remarkable, as shown by sarcophagi representing with special emphasis the story of the child Dionysus and Ariadne. Funerary epigraphy too attests to a proliferation of epitaphs in Greek and Latin devoted to the god’s myths and cultic associations. A late antique Macedonian verse epitaph in Latin alludes to a dead puer who will become a Satyr of the god and another one from Thrace (nowadays Cekacenvo) speaks of a girl as an ancilla of the god. 16 In the sixth century, Syria and Egypt will become bastions of Dionysus, a god followed by many people of different social and intellectual strata.

It is especially interesting to see how the pagan ‘intelligentsia’, from different philosophical spheres, turned Dionysus into the essence of divinity or the ‘intellect of Zeus’ (Dios nous)

We must especially mention - for its philosophical but also political relevance - the Orphic myth of Dionysus Zagreus that narrated the murder of the child-god by the Titans, after deceiving him with a mirror, and his subsequent rebirth. This first Dionysus is politically very relevant for being, even while still a child, the one chosen by Zeus as his successor to the throne of the universe. However, this succession, as it happened so many times in the reality of the Roman Empire, will be frustrated by a conspiracy. The child Dionysus is deceived by the Titans, at the behest of the jealous Hera: the Titans dupe him with children’s toys and, among other things, with a mirror in which he remains looking at his reflection enraptured. Taking advantage of his carelessness, the Titans kill him, tear him apart and eat him. The myth has interesting endings. The second Dionysus, that of the Theban myth, will emerge from his salvaged heart; the Titans are killed by an enraged Zeus with his thunderbolt, and from their ashes humanity will emerge, evil from the gods’ perspective, but partially divine for having participated in the horrible banquet of the god- child. The myth was used not only as a symbolic narrative of the fate of the soul, but also as a metaphysical allegory of the transition between unity and multiplicity, the intelligible and the sensible world, the indivisible and the divisible, reality and its reflection. The Zagreus myth, probably based on an ancient story of the Orphic ritual known since the Archaic era, provided Dionysus with a deeply eschatological and soter- iological dimension, within the framework of the mystery religions, which would be decisive for its Neoplatonic reworking. Another theory holds that this myth was a result of a Neoplatonic interpretation of the ancient Dionysus under a new mould in a Christian context and the product of a modern construction

I will continue in the next post, in an effort to keep topics apart. I can highly recommend the book to anyone, and the ebook is 30 euros.
It is truly astonishing: everything in the NT has parallels with Dionysus - everything. Either Mark was blind as a bat, or it was his very purpose to continue the story - the story which, according to my working theory, originates with Thomas and is expanded by Marcion
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The Greek addition of Oxyrhynchus: buried and raised

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Naturally, Layton and chums assume that the Greek fragments of Thomas came prior to the Coptic, notwithstanding the evident evidence (pun!) of the misreading in logion 6 that points to the Greek misreading the Coptic word for heaven () as that for truth ()

From NAG HAMMADI CODEX 11,2-7, Volume I
Saying 5, Coptic 33: 14 does not have "nor buried that [ will not be raised]" (καὶ θεθαμμένο̣ν ὃ ο[ὐκ ἐγερθησέται], P. Oxy. 654.3 I).
'Buried' and 'raised' are words that don't appear at all in Coptic Thomas, they are clearly an addition in the Greek. And the inspiration could be found in Dionysus:

The dismemberment of Dionysus Zagreus appears in Neoplatonism as a key element to approach the henotheistic interpretation that makes Dionysus the Son of God par excellence, with a soteriological and eschatological function. In his Commentary on the Dream of Scipio, Macrobius also alludes to the mirror that appears in this myth identifying the child-god with the ‘material intellect’, that is, the ‘reflection’ of the intelligible world over matter. He states:
The members of the Orphic sect believe that the material intellect is represented by Bacchus himself who, born of a single father, was torn apart into separate parts. In his sacred rites, he is portrayed as being dismembered at the hands of irate Titans and emerging again safe and sound from the Titan’s buried members. The explanation to this was that the nous or mind, by offering its undivided state to the indivisible, fulfils at the same time its earthly functions and does not abandon its secret nature.
Therefore, the death of Dionysus, who is divided into many pieces after seeing his reflection in the mirror, functions as an allegory for the transition from unity to the multiplicity of the material world

It doesn't get better than this, it really doesn't. Recommended reading:

Edmonds, R. (1999) ‘Tearing Apart the Zagreus Myth. A Few Disparaging Remarks on Orphism and Original Sin’, Classical Antiquity 18.1, 37–72

Not to forget, this is the central core of Orphism: (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orphism_(religion))


The central focus of Orphism is the suffering and death of the god Dionysus at the hands of the Titans, which forms the basis of Orphism's central myth. According to this myth, the infant Dionysus is killed, torn apart, and consumed by the Titans. In retribution, Zeus strikes the Titans with a thunderbolt, turning them to ash. From these ashes, humanity is born. In Orphic belief, this myth describes humanity as having a dual nature: body (Ancient Greek: σῶμα, romanized: sôma), inherited from the Titans, and a divine spark or soul (Ancient Greek: ψυχή, romanized: psukhḗ), inherited from Dionysus.[5] In order to achieve salvation from the Titanic, material existence, one had to be initiated into the Dionysian mysteries and undergo teletē, a ritual purification and reliving of the suffering and death of the god.[6] Orphics believed that they would, after death, spend eternity alongside Orpheus and other heroes. The uninitiated (Ancient Greek: ἀμύητος, romanized: amúētos), they believed, would be reincarnated indefinitely.[7]

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An introduction to and concise history of the development of Dionysus

Post by mlinssen »

Better late-ish than never. All this is from the same book, laddies

(by Cornelia Isler-Kerényi)


Dionysos Gigantomachos in the archaic and classical periods Dionysos appears in Greek ceramic imagery as early as the seventh century BCE, but it is in Athens that we are able to follow the development of his iconography from generation to generation starting in 580 BCE. Until the age of Pericles, Dionysos is normally portrayed as a bearded man, dressed in a long chiton and himation. His movements are measured and dignified. This is his countenance in the numerous images in which he is accompanied by a thiasos of satyrs and dancing women, but also in the mythological representations in which he always appears as an intermediary and defender of the cosmic order, that is to say, of the authority of Zeus. After 430 BCE, this image changes radically: Dionysos is now most commonly portrayed as a handsome youth, almost completely naked, lying down, sitting or in motion; we do not have time here to explain the meaning of this meta- morphosis. 2 In addition to these two types of representation, another image of Dionysos emerged in 560 BCE and continued to be current until the Hellenistic period: that of the gigantomachos, the god who combats the Giants.


The Giants, the Titans: all the same. Apart from Greek mythology and theology being copied by the Romans, over the course of many centuries names have changed or synonyms were added, and Dionysus has about 4 to 5 dozen epithets

Himation - and Chiton

Matthew 5:40 καὶ (and) τῷ (to the one) θέλοντί (willing) σοι (you) κριθῆναι (to sue) καὶ (and) τὸν (the) χιτῶνά (tunic) σου (of you) λαβεῖν (to take), ἄφες (yield) αὐτῷ (to him) καὶ (also) τὸ (the) ἱμάτιον (cloak);
Matthew 9:20 Καὶ (And) ἰδοὺ (behold), γυνὴ (a woman) αἱμορροοῦσα (having had a flux of blood) δώδεκα (twelve) ἔτη (years), προσελθοῦσα (having come up) ὄπισθεν (behind Him), ἥψατο (touched) τοῦ (the) κρασπέδου (fringe) τοῦ (of the) ἱματίου (garment) αὐτοῦ (of Him). 21 ἔλεγεν (She was saying) γὰρ (for) ἐν (within) ἑαυτῇ (herself), “Ἐὰν (If) μόνον (only) ἅψωμαι (I shall touch) τοῦ (the) ἱματίου (garment) αὐτοῦ (of Him), σωθήσομαι (I will be healed).”
Matthew 14:36 καὶ (and) παρεκάλουν (they were begging) αὐτὸν (Him) ἵνα (that) μόνον (only) ἅψωνται (they might touch) τοῦ (the) κρασπέδου (fringe) τοῦ (of the) ἱματίου (garment) αὐτοῦ (of Him); καὶ (and) ὅσοι (as many as) ἥψαντο (touched) διεσώθησαν (were cured).
Matthew 21:7 ἤγαγον (they brought) τὴν (the) ὄνον (donkey) καὶ (and) τὸν (the) πῶλον (colt), καὶ (and) ἐπέθηκαν (put) ἐπ’ (upon) αὐτῶν (them) τὰ (their) ἱμάτια (cloaks), καὶ (and) ἐπεκάθισεν (He sat) ἐπάνω (on) αὐτῶν (them). 8 Ὁ (The) δὲ (now) πλεῖστος (very great) ὄχλος (crowd) ἔστρωσαν (spread) ἑαυτῶν (their) τὰ (the) ἱμάτια (cloaks) ἐν (on) τῇ (the) ὁδῷ (road); ἄλλοι (others) δὲ (now) ἔκοπτον (were cutting down) κλάδους (branches) ἀπὸ (from) τῶν (the) δένδρων (trees) καὶ (and) ἐστρώννυον (were spreading them) ἐν (on) τῇ (the) ὁδῷ (road).
Matthew 24:18 καὶ (and) ὁ (the one) ἐν (in) τῷ (the) ἀγρῷ (field), μὴ (neither) ἐπιστρεψάτω (let him return) ὀπίσω (back) ἆραι (to take) τὸ (the) ἱμάτιον (cloak) αὐτοῦ (of him)

Luke 22:36 Εἶπεν (He said) δὲ (then) αὐτοῖς (to them), “Ἀλλὰ (But) νῦν (now) ὁ (the one) ἔχων (having) βαλλάντιον (a purse), ἀράτω (let him take it); ὁμοίως (likewise) καὶ (also) πήραν (a bag); καὶ (and) ὁ (the one) μὴ (not) ἔχων (having), πωλησάτω (let him sell) τὸ (the) ἱμάτιον (cloak) αὐτοῦ (of him) καὶ (and) ἀγορασάτω (buy one) μάχαιραν (a sword).

John 19:23 Οἱ (The) οὖν (then) στρατιῶται (soldiers), ὅτε (when) ἐσταύρωσαν (they crucified) τὸν (-) Ἰησοῦν (Jesus), ἔλαβον (took) τὰ (the) ἱμάτια (garments) αὐτοῦ (of Him) καὶ (and) ἐποίησαν (made) τέσσαρα (four) μέρη (parts), ἑκάστῳ (to each) στρατιώτῃ (soldier) μέρος (a part), καὶ (and also) τὸν (the) χιτῶνα (tunic). ἦν (Was) δὲ (now) ὁ (the) χιτὼν (tunic) ἄραφος (seamless), ἐκ (from) τῶν (the) ἄνωθεν (top) ὑφαντὸς (woven) δι’ (throughout) ὅλου (all).

I could go on, this is just the himation, and the chiton comes with it for free, as you can see - while there are many other verses with that word.
But there is far more interesting news about the companions of Dionysus:


Among the iconographic elements characterising the archaic and classical Dionysos Gigantomachos, the most interesting is surely the panther that is almost always helping the god. It is represented under two guises: as the animal skin that the god wears over his shoulders, and as the living animal that supports him in the fight. The image expresses the fact that, although he is an ally of Zeus and of the polis, Dionysos is a hunter and therefore also belongs to the outside world. His action manifests itself in the regulated, civilised life as well as in the wild and dangerous nature that surrounds it.



I'm sure that Giuseppe or others are triggered to have a closer look at Mister Ben Panthera...


(by Malgorzata Krawczyk)

The tutelary gods of Lepcis Magna, Septimius Severus’ hometown, were Bacchus/Liber Pater and Hercules, both Roman interpretations of Punic deities. The purpose of this chapter is to elucidate the role of one of them, Liber, in the religious policy of Severus and his sons in the light of coin and epigraphic evidence. His significance to the emperor is evidenced by his presence, along with Hercules, on several coin issues minted between 194 and 210 AD

(...)

From the year 194 also come three denarii of Septimius Severus, on which Liber was depicted without Hercules. The obverse shows the head of Septimius Severus in a laurel wreath, and the reverse shows Liber holding a thyrsus and cantharus, accompanied by a panther. The legend on the re- verse is LIBERO PATRI.



(David Hernández de la Fuente)

This Lagid tradition will certainly have an important inheritance in Roman Egypt, especially in the first Neos Dionysos of the time, Mark Antony himself. As the consort of Cleopatra VII, Mark Antony assumed the title of Neos Dionysos from Ptolemy XII and celebrated magnificent festivals in honour of Dionysus in Samos or Ephesos. Not only Antony, but also Caesar and other later Roman leaders would use Dionysian imagery. The Dionysian triumphal entries of the Hellenistic monarchs, imitated by Antony, became a model for later Roman triumphs, in coins of Augustus, Domitian, Trajan and Hadrian representing the emperor in a quadriga drawn by elephants. The shadow of the political Dionysus is found all along Roman history, as a triumphal god for Roman emperors. Many emperors of the second and third centuries were associated with Dionysus, such as Trajan or Commodus. In 123, Hadrian was officially celebrated in Ancyra as Neos Dionysos, and his successor Antoninus Pius, constructor of a temple to Dionysus in Baalbek, exploited the iconography of the Dionysian triumph.
Thus, the Roman political use of Bacchus was enriched in the iconographic tradition with the inclusion of diverse elements: not only animals for the triumphs, such as panthers, tigers or elephants, but also women such as the Maenads and, above all, Ariadne, who was especially useful for the imperial ideology. Just some examples: in 145, when Marcus Aurelius married Faustina Minor, he appeared in medallion in a Bacchic procession; in 149, Pius, Marcus and their wives appeared together with Bacchus, and, in 157, the imperial couple of Marcus and Faustina was assimilated to Bacchus and Ariadne. Later on, Caracalla and Elagabalus were also celebrated as Bacchus, following the long Roman tradition of Neoi Dionysoi. Late Antiquity was no exception, as we will see now, and Dionysus continued as an important reference for Roman emperors

It seems impossible that the link between the protagonist of Thomas, as well as the Jesus of the canonicals, was not made - but perhaps there was a division here between the elite and the mere folk
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IHS creates, and promotes growth: Atum uses Iusaas, symbol of acacia

Post by mlinssen »

The Satyros in logion 55 pertains to Dionysus, but also points to the other source or background to Thomas: Egypt

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iusaaset

Iusaaset, Iusaas, or, in Greek, Saosis, is a primordial goddess in Ancient Egyptian religion, a feminine counterpart to the male creator deity Atum.[1] Iusaaset was depicted as a woman with a scarab beetle on her head.[1] She was worshipped in the city of I͗wnw or Iunu, the Greek Heliopolis, as was Atum.[2] Iusaaset was associated with the acacia tree and acacias stood at the sanctuary dedicated to Iusaaset at Heliopolis.[3]

The process of creation was said to have begun when Atum masturbated, or copulated with himself, to produce the deities Shu and Tefnut, thus beginning the process of creation. The hand he used in this act was personified as a goddess, the Hand of Atum. She was equated with Hathor or Iusaaset and Nebethetepet, two other, more minor goddesses.[4] The earliest texts to mention them seem to treat Iusaaset and Nebethetepet as two names for a single goddess, but after the time of the Middle Kingdom (c. 2000–1700 BC) they were treated as separate, although similar, deities. The name "Iusaaset" means something resembling "She who grows as she comes" and "Nebethetepet" means "Lady of the Field of Offerings', so the Egyptologist Stephen Quirke suggests that they represented two aspects of creation: Iusaaset for growth and Nebethetepet for abundance


Parable of the sower:

9. said IS : lo-behold did he come-forth viz. he-who throw-sow
did he fill-hand he did he cast
did some(PL) Whilst fall upon the(F) path did they come viz.
the(PL) birds did they gather they
some(PL) another did they fall upon the(F) Rock and did-not they take root downward to the earth and did-not they put-forth heads-of-grain upward to the(F) heaven
and some(PL) another did they fall upon the(PL) Acacia-nilotica did they choke [dop] the seed and did the worm eat they
and did some(PL) another fall upon the earth good and did he give Fruit upward to the(F) heaven good
did he come of sixty to arrow and hundred twenty to arrow


In my Commentary I speak of the two words CITE and COTE, and how they stem from CHT, the word for penis.
The sower comes (ejaculates) and fills his hand - Iusaas, and perhaps IHS represents that very hand in logion 13, 22 and 90.
It is striking how acacias are mentioned here, and also in my Commentary I point out the many alternatives in Coptic to a noun representing thorns - yet what are the odds that a Greek Vorlage would have thorns, and Thomas would end up specifically with this word?

In the end, he comes. And also in my Commentary I explain how the sexagesimal system exists, and how people used to count 60 with one hand using that same system: the last phrase simply says that the return on investment here is one handful and two handfuls

It's all in the Commentary, except for the link to Atum and Iusaas:

https://www.academia.edu/46974146/Compl ... n_Content_

And do get the Discussion content, a near 100 pages of what was discussed.
You may not believe it, you may not like it, but that is not what research is about. Is it traceable, verifiable? And are the arguments sound, are they possible? Likely? Plausible?

To me, it all is. It all is very, very plausible. It is a complex mix of an Egyptian background (Atum), a Hellenistic plot (Dionysus and his satyr-like disciples), and a Tao-like message of self-salvation from the dualistic personas one creates shortly after birth - but if it were simple then it would have been solved long ago

And yes, this all got hijacked and turned into Christianity, likely via Marcion. Did he get it? Did Mark and chums get it?
I think they all did, to some extent, that they recognised the Dionysus in it. The travelling, by boat, Mark inventing the fig tree parable - it is hard to say what comes from where, if Marcion really was in between (and I'm convinced that he was).
But the self invented parables of the coin, the minas, the ten virgins? Those are pathetic in all aspects and miss the mark entirely.
So perhaps Mark did copy Marcion, stripped all that nonsense and added the travelling by boat, attesting to his lack of knowledge of Palestinian geography - and Matthew added it all back in when he created Luke from Marcion without leaving out much if anything.
That would mean that only Mark and John got it, that Thomas created his IS as a Dionysian hero...

Don't let your left hand know what your right hand is doing!
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Re: The Greek addition of Oxyrhynchus: buried and raised

Post by andrewcriddle »

mlinssen wrote: Wed Jul 07, 2021 12:19 am Naturally, Layton and chums assume that the Greek fragments of Thomas came prior to the Coptic, notwithstanding the evident evidence (pun!) of the misreading in logion 6 that points to the Greek misreading the Coptic word for heaven () as that for truth ()

From NAG HAMMADI CODEX 11,2-7, Volume I
Saying 5, Coptic 33: 14 does not have "nor buried that [ will not be raised]" (καὶ θεθαμμένο̣ν ὃ ο[ὐκ ἐγερθησέται], P. Oxy. 654.3 I).
'Buried' and 'raised' are words that don't appear at all in Coptic Thomas, they are clearly an addition in the Greek. And the inspiration could be found in Dionysus:

The dismemberment of Dionysus Zagreus appears in Neoplatonism as a key element to approach the henotheistic interpretation that makes Dionysus the Son of God par excellence, with a soteriological and eschatological function. In his Commentary on the Dream of Scipio, Macrobius also alludes to the mirror that appears in this myth identifying the child-god with the ‘material intellect’, that is, the ‘reflection’ of the intelligible world over matter. He states:
The members of the Orphic sect believe that the material intellect is represented by Bacchus himself who, born of a single father, was torn apart into separate parts. In his sacred rites, he is portrayed as being dismembered at the hands of irate Titans and emerging again safe and sound from the Titan’s buried members. The explanation to this was that the nous or mind, by offering its undivided state to the indivisible, fulfils at the same time its earthly functions and does not abandon its secret nature.
Therefore, the death of Dionysus, who is divided into many pieces after seeing his reflection in the mirror, functions as an allegory for the transition from unity to the multiplicity of the material world

It doesn't get better than this, it really doesn't. Recommended reading:

Edmonds, R. (1999) ‘Tearing Apart the Zagreus Myth. A Few Disparaging Remarks on Orphism and Original Sin’, Classical Antiquity 18.1, 37–72

Not to forget, this is the central core of Orphism: (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orphism_(religion))


The central focus of Orphism is the suffering and death of the god Dionysus at the hands of the Titans, which forms the basis of Orphism's central myth. According to this myth, the infant Dionysus is killed, torn apart, and consumed by the Titans. In retribution, Zeus strikes the Titans with a thunderbolt, turning them to ash. From these ashes, humanity is born. In Orphic belief, this myth describes humanity as having a dual nature: body (Ancient Greek: σῶμα, romanized: sôma), inherited from the Titans, and a divine spark or soul (Ancient Greek: ψυχή, romanized: psukhḗ), inherited from Dionysus.[5] In order to achieve salvation from the Titanic, material existence, one had to be initiated into the Dionysian mysteries and undergo teletē, a ritual purification and reliving of the suffering and death of the god.[6] Orphics believed that they would, after death, spend eternity alongside Orpheus and other heroes. The uninitiated (Ancient Greek: ἀμύητος, romanized: amúētos), they believed, would be reincarnated indefinitely.[7]

One should note that Edmonds Tearing Apart the Zagreus Myth which you mention, argues, plausibly, that the human dual nature idea develops in very late Neoplatonism long after Christianity.

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Re: The Greek addition of Oxyrhynchus: buried and raised

Post by mlinssen »

andrewcriddle wrote: Sat Jul 10, 2021 3:16 am One should note that Edmonds Tearing Apart the Zagreus Myth which you mention, argues, plausibly, that the human dual nature idea develops in very late Neoplatonism long after Christianity.

Andrew Criddle
RADCLIFFE EDMONDS makes up his own twisted twisted of the few myths concerning the birth of Dionysus:

Zeus mated with his daughter Persephone, who bore a son, Zagreus, which is another name for Dionysus. Hera in her jealousy aroused the Titans to attack the child. These monstrous beings, their faces whitened with chalk, attacked the infant as he was looking in a mirror (in another version they beguiled him with toys and cut him to pieces with knives).
After the murder, the Titans devoured the dismembered corpse. But the heart of the infant god was saved and brought to Zeus by Athena, and Dionysus was born again-swallowed by Zeus and begotten on Semele.
Zeus was angry with the Titans and destroyed them with his thunder and lightning. But from their ashes mankind was born.
Surely this is one of the most significant myths in terms of the philosophy and religious dogma that it provides. By it man is endowed with a dual nature-a body, gross and evil (since he is sprung from the Titans), and a soul that is pure and divine (for after all the Titans had devoured the god). Thus basic religious concepts (which lie at the root of all mystery religions) are accounted for: sin, immortality, resurrection, life after death, reward, and punishment.

Technically, he quotes it from Morford and Lenardon 1999:223-24

But this story is grossly distorted, and he would have been better off quoting proper sources

Herodotus, The Histories - book 2.146.2
A. D. Godley, Ed.

http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/tex ... ection%3D2

[2] but as it is, the Greek story has it that no sooner was Dionysus born than Zeus sewed him up in his thigh and carried him away to Nysa in Ethiopia beyond Egypt; and as for Pan, the Greeks do not know what became of him after his birth. It is therefore plain to me that the Greeks learned the names of these two gods later than the names of all the others, and trace the birth of both to the time when they gained the knowledge.

There's much, much more:

Homer, Iliad 14. 323 ff (trans. Lattimore) (Greek epic C8th B.C.) :
"[Zeus addresses Hera :] ‘I loved to Semele in Thebe . . . Semele's son was Dionysos.’"

Homer, Iliad 6. 129 ff :
"Lykourgos the powerful . . . once drove the nurses of rapturous (mainomenos) Dionysos headlong down the sacred Nyseian hill, and all of them shed and scattered their wands on the ground, stricken with an ox-goad by murderous Lykourgos, while Dionysos [still a young child] in terror dived into the salt surf, and Thetis took him to her bosom, frightened, with the strong shivers upon him at the man's blustering."
[N.B. Homer's version of the story of Lykourgos is apparently set during the childhood of Dionysos on Mount Nysa. Subsequent versions of the story set it in Thrake, at the time of the god's wanderings.]

Hesiod, Theogony 940 ff (trans. Evelyn-White) (Greek epic C8th or 7th B.C.) :
"And Semele, daughter of Kadmos was joined with him [Zeus] in love and bare him a splendid son, joyous (polygethes) Dionysos,--a mortal woman an immortal son. And now they both are gods."

Homeric Hymn 1 to Dionysus (trans. Evelyn-White) (Greek epic C7th to 4th B.C.) :
"For some say, at Drakanon on windy Ikaros; and some, in Naxos, O [Dionysos] Insewn born of Zeus (eiraphiota dion genos); and others by the deep-eddying river Alpheios [Arkadian-Eleian river] that pregnant Semele bare you to Zeus the thunder-lover. And others yet, lord, say you were born in Thebes; but all these lie. The Father of men and gods [Zeus] gave you birth remote from men and secretly from white-armed Hera. There is a certain Nysa, a mountain most high and richly grown with woods, far off in Phoinike, near the streams of Aigyptos . . ((lacuna)) [Zeus announces the birth :] ‘and men will lay up for her [Semele mother of Dionysos] many offerings in her shrines. And as these things are three, so shall mortals ever sacrifice perfect hecatombs to you at your feasts each three years.’
Kronion [Zeus] spoke and nodded with his dark brows. And the divine locks of the king flowed forward from his immortal head, and he made great Olympos reel. So spake wise Zeus and ordained it with a nod."

Homeric Hymn 26 to Dionysus :
"The rich-haired Nymphai received him [Dionysos] in their bosoms from the lord his father and fostered and nurtured him carefully in the dells of Nysa, where by the will of his father he grew up in a sweet-smelling cave, being reckoned among the immortals. But when the goddesses had brought him up, a god oft hymned, then began he to wander continually through the woody coombes, thickly wreathed with ivy and laurel. And the Nymphai followed in his train with him for their leader; and the boundless forest was filled with their outcry."

Terpander, Fragment 9 (from Johannes Lydus, On the Months) (trans. Campbell, Vol. Greek Lyric I) (C7th B.C.) :
"Terpander of Lesbos says Nyssa was the nurse of Dionysos."

"Dionysos: I, the son of Zeus, have come to this land of the Thebans--Dionysos, whom once Semele, Kadmos' daughter, bore, delivered by a lightning-bearing flame . . . I see the tomb of my thunder-stricken mother here near the palace, and the remnants of her house, smouldering with the still living flame of Zeus' fire, the everlasting insult of Hera against my mother. I praise Kadmos, who has made this place hallowed, the shrine of his daughter; and I have covered it all around with the cluster-bearing leaf of the vine."

Euripides, Bacchae 90 ff :
"In the compulsion of birth pains, the thunder of Zeus flying upon her, his [Dionysos'] mother [Semele] cast from her womb, leaving life by the stroke of a thunderbolt. Immediately Zeus Kronides received him in a chamber fit for birth, and having covered him in his thigh shut him up with golden clasps, hidden from Hera. And he brought forth, when the Moirai (Fates) had perfected him, the bull-horned god (theos taurokeros), and he crowned him with crowns of snakes (drakones), for which reason Mainades cloak their wild prey over their locks."

Euripides, Bacchae 245 ff :
"Dionysos is a god . . . once stitched into the thigh of Zeus--Dionysos, his mother burnt up by the flame of lightning."

Euripides, Bacchae 285 ff :
"He [Dionysos] was sewn up in Zeus' thigh . . . when Zeus snatched him out of the lighting-flame, and led the child as a god to Olympos, Hera wished to banish him from the sky, but Zeus, as a god, had a counter-contrivance. Having broken a part of the air (aitheros) which surrounds the earth, he gave this [i.e. a phantom baby] to Hera as a pledge protecting the real Dionysos from her hostility. But in time, mortals say that he was nourished in the thigh of Zeus, changing the word [from homeros ‘hostage’ to meros ‘thigh’] because a god he had served as a hostage for the goddess Hera, and composing the story."

Euripides, Bacchae 520 ff :
"Daughter of Akheloios, venerable Dirke [spring on Mt Kithairon], happy virgin, you once received the child of Zeus [Dionysos] in your streams, when Zeus his father snatched him up from the immortal fire and saved him in his thigh, crying out : ‘Go, Dithyrambos, enter this my male womb. I will make you illustrious, Bakkhos, in Thebes, so that they will call you by this name.’"

Pseudo-Apollodorus, Bibliotheca 3. 26 - 29 (trans. Aldrich) (Greek mythographer C2nd A.D.) :
"Kadmos [and Harmonia] had as daughters Autonoe, Ino, Semele and Agaue . . . Zeus fell in love with Semele and slept with her, promising her anything she wanted, and keeping it all from Hera. But Semele was deceived by Hera into asking Zeus to come to her as he came to Hera during their courtship. So Zeus, unable to refuse, arrived in her bridal chamber in a chariot with lightning flashes and thunder, and sent a thunderbolt at her. Semele died of fright, and Zeus grabbed from the fire her six-month aborted baby, which he sewed into his thigh. After Semele's death the remaining daughters of Kadmos circulated the story that she had slept with a mortal, thereafter accusing Zeus, and because of this had been killed by a thunderbolt.
At the proper time Zeus loosened the stitches and gave birth to Dionysos, whom he entrusted to Hermes. Hermes took him to Ino and Athamas, and persuaded them to bring him up as a girl. Incensed, Hera inflicted madness on them, so that that Athamas stalked and slew his elder son Learkhos on the conviction that he was a dear, while Ino threw Melikertes into a basin of boiling water, and then, carrying both the basin and the corpse of the boy, she jumped to the bottom of the sea. Now she is called Leukothea, and her son is Palaimon: these names they receive from those who sail, for they help sailors beset by storms . . .
As for Zeus, he escaped Hera's anger by changing Dionysos into a baby goat. Hermes took him to the Nymphai of Asian Nysa, whom Zeus in later times places among the stars and named the Hyades."

Apollonius Rhodius, Argonautica 4. 1128 ff (trans. Rieu) (Greek epic C3rd B.C.) :
"Makris was the daughter of Aristaios, the honey-loving shepherd who discovered the secret of the bees and the riches that the olive yields in payment for our toil. It was Makris, who in Abantian Euboia, took the infant Dionysos to her bosom and moistened his parched lips with honey, when Hermes had rescued him from the flames and brought him to her. But Hera saw this and in her anger banished her from Euboia. So Makris came to the remote Phaiakian land, where she lived in the sacred cave and brought abundance to the people."

Diodorus Siculus, Library of History 4. 2. 3 (trans. Oldfather) (Greek historian C1st B.C.) :
"Zeus taking up the child [Dionysos from the body of its mother Semele], handed it over to Hermes, and ordered him to take it to the cave in Nysa, which lay between Phoinikia [Phoenicia] and Neilos [the River Nile], where he should deliver it to the Nymphai that they should rear it and with great solicitude bestow upon it the best of care. Consequently, since Dionysos was reared in Nysa, he received the name he bears from Zeus (Dios) and Nysa. And Homer bears witness to this in his Hymns, whence he says : ‘There is a certain Nysa, mountain high, with forests thick, in Phoinike afar, close to Aigyptos' streams.’ After he had received his rearing by the Nymphai in Nysa, they say, he made the discovery of wine and taught mankind how to cultivate the vine."

Pausanias, Description of Greece 3. 18. 11 (trans. Jones) (Greek travelogue C2nd A.D.) :
"[Amongst the scenes depicted on the throne of Apollon at Amyklai near Sparta :] Hermes is bearing the infant Dionysos to heaven."

Pausanias, Description of Greece 3. 24. 3 - 4 :
"The inhabitants [of Brasiae in Lakedaimonia] have a story, found nowhere else in Greece, that Semele, after giving birth to her son by Zeus, was discovered by Kadmos and put with Dionysos into a chest, which was washed up by the waves in their country. Semele, who was no longer alive when found, received a splendid funeral, but they brought up Dionysos. For this reason the name of their city, hitherto called Oreiatae, was changed to Brasiae after the washing up of the chest to land; so too in our time the common word used of the waves casting things ashore is ekbrazein. The people of Brasiae add that Ino in the course of her wanderings came to the country, and agreed to become the nurse of Dionysos. They show the cave where Ino nursed him, and call the plain the garden of Dionysos."

Plutarch, Life of Lysander 28. 4 (trans. Perrin) (Greek historian C1st to C2nd A.D.) :
"The spring called Kissousa (of the ivy) [on Mt Kithairon]. Here, as the story goes, his nurses [the Nysiades] bathed the infant Dionysos after his birth for the water has the color and sparkle of wine, is clear, and very pleasant to the taste."

Philostratus the Elder, Imagines 1. 14 (trans. Fairbanks) (Greek rhetorician C3rd A.D.) :
"[Ostensibly a description of an ancient Greek painting in Neapolis (Naples) :] Bronte (Thunder), stern of face, and Astrape (Lightning) flashing light from her eyes, and raging fire from heaven that has laid hold of a king's house, suggest the following tale, if it is one you know. A cloud of fire encompassing Thebes breaks into the dwelling of Kadmos as Zeus comes wooing Semele; and Semele apparently is destroyed, but Dionysos is born, by Zeus, so I believe, in the presence of the fire. And the form of Semele is dimly seen as she goes to the heavens, where the Mousai (Muses) will hymn her praises : but Dionysos leaps forth as his mother's womb is rent apart and he makes the flame look dim, so brilliantly does he shine like a radiant star.
The flame, dividing, dimly outlines a cave for Dionysos more charming than any in Assyria and Lydia; for sprays of ivy grow luxuriantly about it and clusters of ivy berries and now grape-vines and stalks of thyrsos which spring up from the willing earth, so that some grow in the very fire. We must not be surprised if in honour of Dionysos the Fire (pyros) is crowned by the Earth (gê), for the Earth will take part with the Fire in the Bakkhic revel and will make it possible for the revelers to take wine from springs and to draw milk from clods of earth or from a rock as from living breasts. Listen to Pan, how he seems to be hymning Dionysos on the crests of Kithairon, as he dances an Euian fling. And Kithairon in the form of a man laments the woes soon to occur on his slopes, and he wears an ivy crown aslant on his head--for he accepts the crown most unwillingly--and [the Erinys] Megaira causes a fir to shoot up beside him and brings to light a spring of water, in token, I fancy, of the blood of Aktaion and of Pentheus."

Oppian, Cynegetica 4. 230 ff (trans. Mair) (Greek poet C3rd A.D.) :
"Ino, scion of Agenor, reared the infant Bakkhos and first gave her breast to the son of Zeus, and Autonoe likewise and Agaue joined in nursing him, but not in the baleful halls of Athamas, but on the mountain which at that time men called by the name Meros (Thigh). For greatly fearing the mighty spouse of Zeus [Hera] and dreading the tyrant Pentheus, son of Ekhion, they laid the holy child in a coffer of pine and covered it with fawn-skins and wreathed it with clusters of the vine, in a grotto where round the child they danced the mystic dance and beat drums and clashed cymbals in their hands, to veil the cries of the infant. It was around that hidden ark that they first showed forth their mysteries, and with them the Aionian women secretly took part in the rites. And they arrayed a gathering of their faithful companion to journey from that mountain out of the Boiotian land. For now, now was it fated that a land, which before was wild, should cutivate the vine at the instance of Dionysos who delivers from sorry. Then the holy choir took up the secret coffer and wreathed it and set it on the back of an ass. And they came unto the shores of Euripos, where they found a seafaring old man with his sons, and all together they besought the fishermen that they might cross the water in their boats. Then the old man had compassion on them and received on board the holy women. And lo! On the benches of his boat flowered the lush bindweed and flooming vine and ivy wreathed the stern. Now would the fishermen, cowering in god-sent terror, have dived into the sea, but ere that the boat came to land. And to Euboia the women came, carrying the god, and to the abode of Aristaios, who dwelt in a cave on the top of a mountain at Karyai and who instructed the life of country-dwelling men in countless things; he was the first to establish the flock of sheep; he first pressed the fruit of the oily wild olive, first curdled the milk with rennet [making cheese], and brought the gentle bees from the oak and shut them up in hives. He at that time received the infant Dionysos from the coffer of Ino and reared him in his cave and nursed him with the help of the Dryades and the Nymphai that have bees in their keeping and the maidens of Euboia and the Aionian women. And, when Dionysos was now come to boyhood, he played with the other children; he would cut a fennel stalk and smite the hard rocks, and from their wounds they poured for the god sweet liquor. Otherwhiles he rent rams, skins and all, and clove them piecemeal and cast the dead bodies on the ground; and again with his hands he neatly put their limbs together, and immediately they were alive and browsed on the green pasture. And now he was attended by holy companies, and over all the earth were spread the gifts of Dionysos, son of Thyone, and everywhere he went about showing forth his excellence to men."

Pseudo-Hyginus, Fabulae 155 (trans. Grant) (Roman mythographer C2nd A.D.) :
"Sons of Jove [Zeus] . . . Liber [Dionysos] by Semele, daughter of Cadmus and Harmonia."

Pseudo-Hyginus, Fabulae 167 :
"Liber [the Orphic Dionysos], son of Jove [Zeus] and Proserpine [Persephone], was dismembered by the Titanes, and Jove [Zeus] gave his heart, torn to bits, to Semele in a drink. When she was made pregnant by this, Juno [Hera], changing herself to look like Semele's nurse, Beroe, said to her : ‘Daughter, ask Jove [Zeus] to come to you as he comes to Juno [Hera], so you may know what pleasure it is to sleep with a god.’ At her suggestion Semele made this request of Jove [Zeus], and was smitten by a thunderbolt. He took Liber [Dionysos] from her womb, and gave him to Nysus to be cared for. For this reason he is called Dionysus, and also ‘the one with two mothers.’"

Pseudo-Hyginus, Fabulae 179 :
"Jove [Zeus] desired to lie with Semele, and when Juno [Hera] found out, she changed her form to that of the nurse Beroe, came to Semele, and suggested that she ask Jove to come to her as he came to Juno [Hera], ‘that you may know,’ she said, ‘what pleasure it is to lie with a god.’ And so Semele asked Jove [Zeus] to come to her in this way. Her request was granted, and Jove [Zeus], coming with lightning and thunder, burned Semele to death. From her womb Liber [Dionysos] was born. Mercurius [Hermes] snatched him from the fire and gave him to Nysus [Seilenos] to be reared. In Greek he is called Dionysus."

Pseudo-Hyginus, Fabulae 182 :
"The Nymphae which are called Dodonides (others call them Naides) [text mising] Their names are Cisseis, Nysa, Erato, Eriphia, Bromie, Polyhymno. On Mount Nysa these obtained a boon from their foster-son [Dionysos], who made petition to Medea. Putting off old age, they were changed to young girls, and later, consecrated among the stars, they are called Hyades (rainy ones). Others report that they were called Arsinoe, Ambrosie, Bromie, Cisseis, and Coronis."

Pseudo-Hyginus, Fabulae 192 :
"Atlas by Pleione or an Oceanid had twelve daughters, and a son Hyas . . . The five of them first put among the stars have their place between the horns of the bull--Phaesyla, Ambrosia, Coronis, Eudora, Polyxo--and are called from their brother's name, Hyades . . . There are those who think they are among the stars because they were the nurses of Father Liber [Dionysos] whom Lycurgus drove out from the island of Naxos."

Pseudo-Hyginus, Astronomica 2. 21 :
"The stars which outline the face [of the constellation Taurus] are called Hyades. These, Pherecydes the Athenian [mythographer C5th B.C.] says, are the nurses of Liber [Dionysos], seven in number, who earlier were nymphae called Dodonidae. Their names are as follows: Ambrosia, Eudora, Pedile, Coronis, Polyxo, Phyto, and Thyone. They are said to have been put to flight by Lycurgus and all except Ambrosia took refuge with Thetis, as Asclepiades says. But according to Pherecydes, they brought Liber [Dionysos] to Thebes and delivered him to Ino, and for this reason Jove [Zeus] expressed his thanks to them by putting them among the constellations."

Ovid, Metamorphoses 3. 304 ff (trans. Melville) (Roman epic C1st B.C. to C1st A.D.) :
"The girl [Semele], unwittingly, asked of Jove [Zeus] a boon unnamed . . . [and she] doomed by her lover's generosity, answered ‘Give me yourself in the same grace as when your Saturnia [Hera] holds you to her breast in love's embrace.’ . . . As far as he [Zeus] had power, to curb his might, and would not wield the fire with which he's felled hundred-handed Typhoeus. That was too fierce. There is another bolt, a lighter one, in which the Cyclopes forged a flame less savage and a lesser wrath, called by the gods his second armament. With this in hand he went to Semele in Cadmus' palace. Then her mortal frame could not endure the tumult of the heavens; that gift of love consumed her. From her womb her baby, still not fully formed, was snatched, and sewn (could one believe the tale) inside his father's thigh, and so completed there his mother's time. Ino, his mother's sister, in secret from the cradle nursed the child and brought him up, and then the Nymphae Nyseides were given his charge and kept him hidden away within their caves, and nourished him on milk. Down on earth as destiny ordained these things took place, and Bacchus [Dionysos], baby twice born, was cradled safe and sound."

Ovid, Fasti 3. 767 ff (trans.Boyle) (Roman poetry C1st B.C. to C1st A.D.) :
"Bacchus [Dionysos] loves the ivy most. Why this, too, is so, takes no time to learn. They say that, when his stepmother [Hera] hunted for the boy, Nymphae from Nysa screened the crib with its leaves."

Pliny the Elder, Natural History 6. 78 (trans. Rackham) (Roman encyclopedia C1st A.D.) :
"Most people assign to India the city of Nisa and Mount Merus which his sacred to father Liber [Dionysos], this being the place from which originated the myth of the birth of Liber [Dionysos] from the thigh of Jove [Zeus]."

Seneca, Hercules Furens 455 ff (trans. Miller) (Roman tragedy C1st A.D.) :
"Knowest thou not what heavy ills he bore in infancy? Ripped by a thunderbolt from his mother's womb, a boy [Dionysos] in after-time stood next his sire, the Thunderer [Zeus]."

Seneca, Oedipus 418 ff :
"When, fearing thy stepdame's [Hera's] wrath, thou [Dionysos] didst grow to manhood with false-seeming limbs, a pretended maiden with golden ringlets, with saffron girdle binding thy garments."

Seneca, Oedipus 444 ff :
"Cadmean Ino, foster-mother of shining Bacchus."

The birth of Dionysos is descibed in some detail in Nonnus' Dionysiaca. Only a few selected paragraphs are currently quoted here:--

Nonnus, Dionysiaca 9. 28 ff (trans. Rouse) (Greek epic C5th A.D.) :
"[Hermes] gave him [the new born babe Dionysos just delivered from Zeus' thigh] to the [Lamides] daughters of Lamos, river Nymphai--the son of Zeus, the vineplanter. They received Bakkhos into their arms; and each of them dropt the milky juice of her breast without pressing into his mouth. And the boy lay on his back unsleeping, and fixt his eye on the heaven above, or kicked at the air with his two feet one after the other in delight, and laughed in wonder to see his father's vault of stars.
The consort of Zeus beheld the babe, and suffered torments. Through the wrath of resentful Hera, the daughters of Lamos were maddened by the lash of that divine mischiefmaker. In the house they attacked the servants, in threeways they carved up the wayfaring man with alienslaying knife; they howled horrible, with violent convulsions they rolled the eyes in their disfigured faces; they scampered about this way and that way at the mercy of their wandering wits, running and skipping with restless feet, and the mad breezes made their wandering locks dance wildly into the air; the yellow shift round the bosom of each was whitened with drops of foam from the lips of the girls. Indeed they would have chopt up little Bakkhos [Dionysos] a baby still piecemeal in the distracted flood of their vagabond madness, had not Hermes come on wing and stolen Bakkhos again with a robber's untracked footsteps."

Nonnus, Dionysiaca 14. 143 ff :
"Another kind of the twiform Kentauroi (Centaurs) . . . were the sons of the water Neiades in mortal body, whom men call Hyades, offspring of the river Lamos. They [the sons] had played the nurses for the babe that Zeus had so happily brought forth, Bakkhos, while he still had a breath of the sewn-up birth-pocket. They were the cherishing saviours of Dionysos when he was hidden from every eye, and then they had nothing strange in their shape; in that dark cellar they often dandled the child in bended arms, still a child at play, but a clever babe. Or he would mimic a newborn kid; hiding in the fold, he covered his body with long hair, and in this strange shape let out a deceptive bleat between his teeth, and pretended to walk on hooves in goatlike steps. Or he would show himself like a young girl in saffron robes and take on the feigned shape of a woman; to mislead the mind of spiteful Hera, he moulded his lips to speak in a girlish voice, tied a scented veil on his hair. He put on all a woman's manycoloured garments: fastened a maiden's vest about his chest and the firm circle of his bosom, and fitted a purple girdle over his hips like a band of maidenhood.
But his guile was useless. Hera, who turns her all-seeing eye to every place, saw from on high the everchanging shape of Lyaios [Dionysos], and knew all. Then she was angry with the guardians of Bromios. She procured from Thessalian Akhlys (Misery) treacherous flowers of the field, and shed a sleep of enchantment over their heads; she distilled poisoned drugs over their hair, she smeared a subtle magical ointment over their faces ,and changed their earlier human shape. Then they took the form of a creature with long ears, and a horse's tail sticking out straight from the loins and flogging the flanks of its shaggy-crested owner; from the temples cow's horns sprouted out, their eyes widened under the horned forehead, the hair ran across their heads in tuft, long white teeth grew out of their jaws, a strange kind of mane grew of itself, covering their necks with rough hair, and ran down from the loins to feet underneath."
andrewcriddle
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Re: Jesus = Dionysus = Zeus

Post by andrewcriddle »

I'm genuinely unclear what you are arguing.

My point was that the Wikipedia claim you quoted
From these ashes, humanity is born. In Orphic belief, this myth describes humanity as having a dual nature: body (Ancient Greek: σῶμα, romanized: sôma), inherited from the Titans, and a divine spark or soul (Ancient Greek: ψυχή, romanized: psukhḗ), inherited from Dionysus.
is opposed by the Radcliffe Edmonds article you cited.

Your additional quotes from primary sources, although interesting, do not seem to respond to this specific point. Are you claiming that Radcliffe Edmonds is correct to attack the ideas found in the Wikipedia claim but that this claim (although probably false) is irrelevant to your argument, or are you defending the Wikipedia claim as probably true despite the criticisms of Radcliffe Edmonds ?

Andrew Criddle
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mlinssen
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Re: Jesus = Dionysus = Zeus

Post by mlinssen »

andrewcriddle wrote: Sun Jul 11, 2021 10:54 am I'm genuinely unclear what you are arguing.

My point was that the Wikipedia claim you quoted
From these ashes, humanity is born. In Orphic belief, this myth describes humanity as having a dual nature: body (Ancient Greek: σῶμα, romanized: sôma), inherited from the Titans, and a divine spark or soul (Ancient Greek: ψυχή, romanized: psukhḗ), inherited from Dionysus.
is opposed by the Radcliffe Edmonds article you cited.

Your additional quotes from primary sources, although interesting, do not seem to respond to this specific point. Are you claiming that Radcliffe Edmonds is correct to attack the ideas found in the Wikipedia claim but that this claim (although probably false) is irrelevant to your argument, or are you defending the Wikipedia claim as probably true despite the criticisms of Radcliffe Edmonds ?

Andrew Criddle
The "Orphic myth" was quoted by me to show the parallels with Osiris who gets killed, chopped up and his body parts dispersed across the earth - something that I should have mentioned.
The Titan story mainly served to address the "buried and raised" that is an addition in the Greek Thomas fragments

It turns out that there really are too many myths about everything surrounding either Dionysus or anything Egyptian, with e.g. the mirror bearing great resemblance to the story of Narcissus. If we dive into the Greek and Egyptian mythology there are many dozens of parallels with Christianity, and those also exist in myths of surrounding countries such as that of Zoroaster.
The question is: which stories were the most mainstream, or popular, among the writers and intended audience of the gospels?

For that question to be answered we find ourselves back at the original predicament, that of placing and dating the first documents - because popularity of anything changes over time and space

So, to finally answer your relevant remark here: yes, no, my response didn't address yours. The Edmonds piece (I've now read more than just the first pages) is actually a very good one indeed, convincingly addressing the how and why of the various (disparate) elements of the myth, and he does do that very well moreover by locating them in time

So thanks, Andrew. I move too fast sometimes!
davidmartin
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Re: Jesus = Dionysus = Zeus

Post by davidmartin »

I am sorry but I think the mark of a true Christian is someone that thinks we are being lied to by the fucking clowns who think they know God and to their horror discover they do not know him when they die
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