Rabbi Wise and Antigonus II Mattathias

Discussion about the New Testament, apocrypha, gnostics, church fathers, Christian origins, historical Jesus or otherwise, etc.
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mlinssen
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Re: Rabbi Wise and Antigonus II Mattathias

Post by mlinssen »

StephenGoranson wrote: Mon Jul 26, 2021 3:33 am mlinssen. I am not sure how it would help if I wrote at length or repeat many times the message that I am not persuaded Coptic Thomas preceded Greek Thomas and Mark, Matthew and Luke. Suggestions of literary dependence, as I have written, are often less than probative. The many views of "the synoptic problem” bear that out. And, if, as you contest, Thomas is anti-Christian, why the synoptic authors would have hypothetically been drawn to it seems to me puzzling. [Added: Did any synoptic author read Coptic or was it translated very early, in your view?]
Stephen. Little kids play that game of

"It is!"
"'T is not!"
"Is!"
"Isn't"

and so on, you get the idea there, I think.
Arguments help to convince someone of what the other is thinking, feeling, contemplating - that's how life works really, where we get to understand each other based on exchanging that what lies behind our reasoning

Your message of not being persuaded is nothing like that, it lacks any and all literally critical arguments and rests solely on the general view that Coptic didn't come into existence until 3rd, at best 2nd - and I agreed from the start with such being the view

Thomas likely grew into a big movement, highly lonely that was via Marcion who turned it into a narrative, and then it was just a matter of ripping his words out of context and place those in the Judaic prophecy-fulfilling context of the canonicals. All that happened in Greek, and the copying errors were made by anyone, certainly not by Thomas himself if he indeed managed to distribute his Greek copy.
The Oxy papyrus already attest to many copying errors, most of which I discussed in viewtopic.php?p=123922#p123922

Propaganda, Stephen - Churchianity is nothing but religio-political rhetoric Propaganda. You take the words of your adversary and twist and turn them into your context - it's what the fiendly ogre still does, for example
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Re: Rabbi Wise and Antigonus II Mattathias

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Image

Amazon. This work has been selected by scholars as being culturally important, and is part of the knowledge base of civilization as we know it. This work was reproduced from the original artifact, and remains as true to the original work as possible. Therefore, you will see the original copyright references, library stamps (as most of these works have been housed in our most important libraries around the world), and other notations in the work.

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Martyrdom-Jesu ... 8&qid=&sr=
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Re: Rabbi Wise and Antigonus II Mattathias

Post by mlinssen »

maryhelena wrote: Mon Jul 26, 2021 5:50 am Image

Amazon. This work has been selected by scholars as being culturally important, and is part of the knowledge base of civilization as we know it. This work was reproduced from the original artifact, and remains as true to the original work as possible. Therefore, you will see the original copyright references, library stamps (as most of these works have been housed in our most important libraries around the world), and other notations in the work.

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Martyrdom-Jesu ... 8&qid=&sr=
That, or the original - for free

https://archive.org/details/martyrdomofjesus00wiserich
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maryhelena
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Re: Rabbi Wise and Antigonus II Mattathias

Post by maryhelena »

maryhelena wrote: Mon Jul 26, 2021 5:50 am Image

Amazon. This work has been selected by scholars as being culturally important, and is part of the knowledge base of civilization as we know it. This work was reproduced from the original artifact, and remains as true to the original work as possible. Therefore, you will see the original copyright references, library stamps (as most of these works have been housed in our most important libraries around the world), and other notations in the work.

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Martyrdom-Jesu ... 8&qid=&sr=
Amazon are after your hard earned cash..... ;)

One can read the book on the other links.

I posted the Amazon link as I was surprised to see it's available to purchase.
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Re: Rabbi Wise and Antigonus II Mattathias

Post by StephenGoranson »

"Generally, new suggestions to you [m. h.] are met with a 19th-century I. M. Wise quote, or a popcorn-eating image, or a photo of a coin."
Two out of three so far. With the coin again, a trifecta, a hat trick.

As far as suggestions attempting to be constructive, I have invited reading about the Birkat Ha Mimin, some versions of which mention Notsrim, that is Nazarenes, that is, many think, some form of Christians. Here is the link:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Birkat_haMinim

(Do I need to copy it here, summarize it, or read it aloud?)

Since I thought you were interested in claims of heresy, this is part of that ancient history. Not everyone agrees on how to interpret this, but all historians acknowledge that it was part of the ancient Jewish and Christian experience, of which Origen's writings, including mentions of Josephus, also play a role.

And, really, you recommend a link to a discussion of Greek and/or Coptic translations? I thought you said that was not your interest.
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maryhelena
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Re: Rabbi Wise and Antigonus II Mattathias

Post by maryhelena »

Rabbi Wise end his book with this:

Like rabbinical Judaism, dogmatic Christianity was the product of ages without typography, telescopes, microscopes, telegraphs, and the power of' steam. These right arms of intelligence have fought the titanic battles, conquered and demolished the ancient castles, and remove now the debris, preparing the ground upon which there shall be reared the gorgeous temple of humanity, one universal republic, one universal religion of intelligence, and one great universal brotherhood. This is the new covenant, the gospel of humanity and reason.

Powerful words = perhaps even more so today with the internet offering the opportunity of free enquire to all rational minds.
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maryhelena
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Re: Rabbi Wise and Antigonus II Mattathias

Post by maryhelena »

StephenGoranson wrote: Mon Jul 26, 2021 6:12 am "Generally, new suggestions to you [m. h.] are met with a 19th-century I. M. Wise quote,
Very funny - while the so called Church fathers are continually popping up here to have their say...... :banghead:
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Re: Rabbi Wise and Antigonus II Mattathias

Post by StephenGoranson »

m.h.: "Powerful words = perhaps even more so today with the internet offering the opportunity of free enquire to all rational minds."

Let me rephrase: will you read (it's not old; not Church Fathers;...might be safe to read):

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Birkat_haMinim

and see if you think it is relevant in this forum to rational enquiry?
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Re: Rabbi Wise and Antigonus II Mattathias

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Page 412: The Jesus the Jews Never Knew: Frank Zindler

For more probable theories of the origin of the crucifixion legend may be ventured. Rabbi Wise considers that it may have arisen from the story of Antigonus. He writes, ''Dion Cassius says, 'Antony now gave the Kingdom to a certain Herod, and having stretched Antigonus on the cross and scourged him, which had never been done before to a king by the Romans, he put him to death'. The sympathies of the masses for the crucified king of Judah, the heroic son of so many heroic ancestors, and the legends growing, in time, out of this historical nucleus, became, perhaps, the source from which Paul and the evangelists preached Jesus as the crucified king of Judea.'' (History of the Hebrew's Second Commonwealth, 1880, Cincinnati, page 206)

Rabbi Isaac Mayer Wise (1819-1900), scholar and novelist

http://collections.americanjewisharchiv ... wealth.pdf

Image

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Jesus-Jews-Nev ... 767&sr=8-2
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maryhelena
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Re: Rabbi Wise and Antigonus II Mattathias

Post by maryhelena »

StephenGoranson wrote: Mon Jul 26, 2021 6:30 am m.h.: "Powerful words = perhaps even more so today with the internet offering the opportunity of free enquire to all rational minds."

Let me rephrase: will you read (it's not old; not Church Fathers;...might be safe to read):

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Birkat_haMinim

and see if you think it is relevant in this forum to rational enquiry?
Stephen, you mentioned 'heretic' and 'heresy' on this thread, not me.....by all means start a thread on 'heretic' and 'heresy' if that is your interest.....I won't be sidelined from the focus of this thread - which is: Rabbi Wise and Antigonus II Mattathias.

If your intention is to drag this thread into a historical Jesus debate - you won't get any such debate with me. I've been a Jesus ahistoricst for coming on for 40 years now - so I'm a lost cause for your attempts. Water off a ducks back and all that....
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