Robyn Walsh, The Origins of Early Christian Literature

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gryan
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Re: Robyn Walsh, The Origins of Early Christian Literature

Post by gryan »

gryan wrote: Thu Aug 11, 2022 5:07 am
Yes, Robyn Walsh presented one of the best (IMHO) papers at the New Quest for Historical Jesus. The focus was on Mark and (as memory serves), how Mark creates a sense of spiritual immediacy. My memory of it is twisted in the direction of my blurry memory of her answer to my question which I sent via chat. I asked if Mark's use of εὐθέως was integral to his creation of a sense of spiritual immediacy. She said it was a good question and she agreed. She expanded on the topic by recalling how her teacher, Stanley Stowers said that εὐθέως has Jesus appearing here than there like a blinking light.
PS. This just popped into my head, or rather, into my inner jukebox: I detect a modern secularized eroticized Markan εὐθέως in the "suddenly" of the KT Tunstall song, Suddenly I See. The video version which I had not seen before adds to the blinking light effect--here, then there. And no doubt :?: :?: the "tower" in the lyrics allude to Migdalene, meaning “tower".

"She makes me feel like I could be a tower
A big strong tower..."
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9AEoUa0Hlso
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Leucius Charinus
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Re: Robyn Walsh, The Origins of Early Christian Literature

Post by Leucius Charinus »

Walsh mentions "The Widow from Ephesus"
Asks would the gospel writers have read this?

[111] There was a married woman in Ephesus of such famous virtue that she drew women even from the neighbouring states to gaze upon her. So when she had buried her husband, the common fashion of following the procession with loose hair, and beating the naked breast in front of the crowd, did not satisfy her. She followed the dead man even to his resting-place, and began to watch and weep night and day over the body, which was laid in an underground vault in the Greek fashion. Neither her parents nor her relations could divert her from thus torturing herself, and courting death by starvation; the officials were at last rebuffed and left her; every one mourned for her as a woman of unique character, and she was now[p. 231] passing her fifth day without food. A devoted maid sat by the failing woman, shed tears in sympathy with her woes, and at the same time filled up the lamp, which was placed in the tomb, whenever it sank. There was but one opinion throughout the city, every class of person admitting this was the one true and brilliant example of chastity and love. At this moment the governor of the province gave orders that some robbers should be crucified near the small building where the lady was bewailing her recent loss. So on the next night, when the soldier who was watching the crosses, to prevent anyone taking down a body for burial, observed a light shining plainly among the tombs, and heard a mourner's groans, a very human weakness made him curious to know who it was and what he was doing. So he went down into the vault, and on seeing a very beautiful woman, at first halted in confusion, as if he had seen a portent or some ghost from the world beneath. But afterwards noticing the dead man lying there, and watching the woman's tears and the marks of her nails on her face, he came to the correct conclusion, that she found her regret for the lost one unendurable. He therefore brought his supper into the tomb, and began to urge the mourner not to persist in useless grief, and break her heart with unprofitable sobs: for all men made the same end and found the same resting-place, and so on with the other platitudes which restore wounded spirits to health. But she took no notice of his sympathy, struck and tore her breast more violently than ever, pulled out her hair, and laid it on the dead body. Still the soldier did not retire, but tried to give the poor woman food with similar encouragements, until the maid, who was no doubt seduced by the smell of his[p. 233] wine, first gave in herself, and put out her hand at his kindly invitation, and then, refreshed with food and drink, began to assail her mistress's obstinacy, and say, 'What will you gain by all this, if you faint away with hunger, if you bury yourself alive, if you breathe out your undoomed soul before Fate calls for it?' 'Believest thou that the ashes or the spirit of the buried dead can feel thy woe?1 Will you not begin life afresh? Will you not shake off this womanish failing, and enjoy the blessings of the light so long as you are allowed? Your poor dead husband's body here ought to persuade you to keep alive.' People are always ready to listen when they are urged to take a meal or to keep alive. So the lady, being thirsty after several days' abstinence, allowed her resolution to be broken down, and filled herself with food as greedily as the maid, who had been the first to yield.

[112] “Well, you know which temptation generally assails a man on a full stomach. The soldier used the same insinuating phrases which had persuaded the lady to consent to live, to conduct an assault upon her virtue. Her modest eye saw in him a young man, handsome and eloquent. The maid begged her to be gracious, and then said, 'Wilt thou fight love even when love pleases thee? Or dost thou never remember in whose lands thou art resting?'1 I need hide the fact no longer. The lady ceased to hold out, and the conquering hero won her over entire. So they passed not only their wedding night together, but the next and a third, of course shutting the door of the vault, so that any friend or stranger who came to the tomb would imagine that this most virtuous lady had breathed her last over her husband's body. Well, the[p. 235] soldier was delighted with the woman's beauty, and his stolen pleasure; he bought up all the fine things his means permitted, and carried them to the tomb the moment darkness fell. So the parents of one of the crucified, seeing that the watch was ill-kept, took their man down in the dark and administered the last rite to him. The soldier was eluded while he was off duty, and next day, seeing one of the crosses without its corpse, he was in terror of punishment, and explained to the lady what had happened. He declared that he would not wait for a court-martial, but would punish his own neglect with a thrust of his sword. So she had better get ready a place for a dying man, and let the gloomy vault enclose both her husband and her lover. The lady's heart was tender as well as pure. 'Heaven forbid,' she replied, 'that I should look at the same moment on the dead bodies of two men whom I love. No, I would rather make a dead man useful, than send a live man to death.' After this speech she ordered her husband's body to be taken out of the coffin and fixed up on the empty cross. The soldier availed himself of this far-seeing woman's device, and the people wondered the next day by what means the dead man had ascended the cross.”

http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/tex ... tion%3D111

StephenGoranson
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Re: Robyn Walsh, The Origins of Early Christian Literature

Post by StephenGoranson »

gryan wrote: "Yes, Robyn Walsh presented one of the best (IMHO) papers at the New Quest for Historical Jesus. The focus was on Mark and (as memory serves), how Mark creates a sense of spiritual immediacy. My memory of it is twisted in the direction of my blurry memory of her answer to my question which I sent via chat. ...."

The conference was recorded;
RFW starting at 8:45 in
https://www.facebook.com/72702146/video ... 238581843/
Cf.:
https://www.reddit.com/r/HistoricalJesu ... cal_jesus/
gryan
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Re: Robyn Walsh, The Origins of Early Christian Literature

Post by gryan »

StephenGoranson wrote: Mon Aug 15, 2022 5:08 am gryan wrote: "Yes, Robyn Walsh presented one of the best (IMHO) papers at the New Quest for Historical Jesus. The focus was on Mark and (as memory serves), how Mark creates a sense of spiritual immediacy. My memory of it is twisted in the direction of my blurry memory of her answer to my question which I sent via chat. ...."

The conference was recorded;
RFW starting at 8:45 in
https://www.facebook.com/72702146/video ... 238581843/
Cf.:
https://www.reddit.com/r/HistoricalJesu ... cal_jesus/
Stephen:

Thanks so much for this link to the paper presented by Robyn Walsh.

I had been looking for this link, but could not find it.

Greg
ABuddhist
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Re: Robyn Walsh, The Origins of Early Christian Literature

Post by ABuddhist »

neilgodfrey wrote: Sun Jul 11, 2021 9:44 pm a somewhat crude narrative exposition in the earliest surviving external references to the gospels that is at odds with some of the literary allusions in those gospels. [...] OT allusions that were made in the earliest external references to the gospels were so different from the types of allusions we find in the gospels themselves.
Sorry for my late comment, but would you mind elaborating upon these two points? They seem to be interesting to me.
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neilgodfrey
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Re: Robyn Walsh, The Origins of Early Christian Literature

Post by neilgodfrey »

ABuddhist wrote: Tue Aug 16, 2022 6:32 am
neilgodfrey wrote: Sun Jul 11, 2021 9:44 pm a somewhat crude narrative exposition in the earliest surviving external references to the gospels that is at odds with some of the literary allusions in those gospels. [...] OT allusions that were made in the earliest external references to the gospels were so different from the types of allusions we find in the gospels themselves.
Sorry for my late comment, but would you mind elaborating upon these two points? They seem to be interesting to me.
I think I had in mind the type of thing we read in Justin's works, such as the Magi coming to worship Christ was a fulfilment of the prophecy in Isaiah that at the appearance of the messiah the power of demons over Samaria and Damascus would be broken (Trypho 77).
Kunigunde Kreuzerin
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Re: Robyn Walsh, The Origins of Early Christian Literature

Post by Kunigunde Kreuzerin »

StephenGoranson wrote: Mon Aug 15, 2022 5:08 am gryan wrote: "Yes, Robyn Walsh presented one of the best (IMHO) papers at the New Quest for Historical Jesus. The focus was on Mark and (as memory serves), how Mark creates a sense of spiritual immediacy. My memory of it is twisted in the direction of my blurry memory of her answer to my question which I sent via chat. ...."

The conference was recorded;
RFW starting at 8:45 in
https://www.facebook.com/72702146/video ... 238581843/
Cf.:
https://www.reddit.com/r/HistoricalJesu ... cal_jesus/
I love that these more modern scholars like Walsh are looking at the relationship of the gospels to Graeco-Roman literature and the issues they are discussing. However, I find that their approach is sometimes a bit "naïve" and shows an unfamiliarity with both Graeco-Roman literature and GMark (Not that I'm an expert). In the lecture, Walsh shows similarities that imho are only superficial. It seems to me, that it would be much more appropriate to discuss the profound differences based on these superficial similarities. (Naturally, Walsh tries to show as many similarities as possible to support her theory and is not interested in discussing the differences.)

Recently, I read somewhere a post on the relationship between GMark and Petronius' Satyricon by an NT scholar. Of course, from an ancient perspective, both works are an alienated kind of an "Odyssey" and in both works many characters are simple people. Both works are revolutionary on a literary level and have certain themes in common (e.g. banquets). But that was it. This NT scholar was unable to grasp that beyond these similarities, GMark is more of an anti-Satyricon. But this is simply obvious! One could make a great book about pagan society as the environment of ancient Christians based on these two books, but one cannot naively put them side by side. That's crazy :D
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