Greek Loanwords in Mishnaic Hebrew

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StephenGoranson
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Re: Greek Loanwords in Mishnaic Hebrew

Post by StephenGoranson »

Fine. I thought you asked about "Greek Loanwords in Mishnaic Hebrew." Learn Aramaic too, then.
Secret Alias
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Re: Greek Loanwords in Mishnaic Hebrew

Post by Secret Alias »

I had my own uncertainty about this investigation. Mishnaic Hebrew fell into disuse shortly after the establishment of the Mishnah. It's a very limited subset of texts. Not sure HTF this relates to Christianity. I suggested Aramaic because there is a more natural affinity with the religion of Jesus and Jewish Aramaic was heavily influenced by Hebrew.

As noted in Giuseppe's original post in another thread (assuming that's where this all comes from) it's very difficult to know how 'jokes' or puns work across languages. The sophistication to fully grasp what 'works' in another language (let's say 'Mishnaic' Hebrew) is beyond my abilities to gauge and likely anyone at the forum. So what's the purpose of carrying forward with this investigation? I had professor friends who could read Arabic, Aramaic, Biblical and modern Hebrew, Greek, Latin, German, French etc and even they would admit when I would ask similarly tangential questions 'I don't know.' At best, I would get a 'that won't work.' But I don't see how the general proposition is provable given that we are already at the fringes of what is knowable and knowable only by a handful of people none of which are at this forum.

When Ben Hayyim was working with the writings of Marqe even his decisions about primary, secondary and tertiary layers to the texts was at best an educated guess. Then when you see a couple of generations Gaster's translation of various Samaritan works he was clueless and Gaster's ability in Hebrew was quite good. All of this is beyond anyone's ability to know, critique or understand.
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neilgodfrey
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Re: Greek Loanwords in Mishnaic Hebrew

Post by neilgodfrey »

Secret Alias wrote: Tue Jul 20, 2021 6:12 am I had my own uncertainty about this investigation. Mishnaic Hebrew fell into disuse shortly after the establishment of the Mishnah. It's a very limited subset of texts. Not sure HTF this relates to Christianity.
Dubourg's hypothesis rests on the following:
  • -- evidence that Hebrew was the common language in Judea in the first century ce
  • -- evidence that the Greek syntax of the gospels is quite unsophisticated as Greek but makes good sense as Hebrew, leading to the possibility that the gospels are translations of Hebrew texts
  • -- evidence that the vocabulary in the Greek gospels heavily overlays the same vocabulary that we find as Greek loanwords in the subsequent rabbinic literature -- again, pointing towards the possibility that our Greek gospels are translations of Hebrew (a Hebrew infused with Greek loanwords).
The hypothesis further posits that it is possible to get a reasonable idea of the original Hebrew gospels because the Hebrew word choices for each Greek word we read are quite limited. As a rule of thumb there are not a dozen words to choose from when retroverting from a Greek word to a Hebrew match.

A confirmation of the hypothesis is said to be that when one does retrovert from Greek to the Hebrew text, one not only finds a Greek loanword but one also finds multiple puns in that Hebrew retroversion that may be said to be lost in our Greek gospels. Not only puns, but also links to OT passages that bring out further explanatory insight into the passage. And further, the intriguing coincidences of relevant matches in gematria in those Hebrew retroversions.

(There are, of course, also in our Greek texts puns and alliterations in the Greek itself. There are also a Latinisms and Aramaicisms. These are not ignored.)
Secret Alias wrote: Tue Jul 20, 2021 6:12 am As noted in Giuseppe's original post in another thread (assuming that's where this all comes from) it's very difficult to know how 'jokes' or puns work across languages.
Dubourg's retroversions to Hebrew reveal a good number of puns that are absent from the Greek. There aren't a lot of options in the Hebrew, he says, that one can choose from to posit a Hebrew behind the Greek text, so it is likely that the puns were in the original text but lost in translation. So goes his theory.

Secret Alias wrote: Tue Jul 20, 2021 6:12 amAll of this is beyond anyone's ability to know, critique or understand.
I find some of Dubourg's discussion too huge a camel to swallow whole but at the same time I do wonder if the core of his hypothesis has something worth investigating. I am an optimist and always hold out hope that new perspectives can bring new insights to just about anything.

What are the simpler explanations for the data points (listed above) that D raises and that would overturn his hypothesis? That's what I am exploring.
Charles Wilson
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Re: Greek Loanwords in Mishnaic Hebrew

Post by Charles Wilson »

neilgodfrey wrote: Tue Jul 20, 2021 12:41 pm...so it is likely that the puns were in the original text but lost in translation. So goes his theory.
I do wonder if the core of his hypothesis has something worth investigating...
John 1: 35 - 36 (RSV):

[35] The next day again John was standing with two of his disciples;
[36] and he looked at Jesus as he walked, and said, "Behold, the Lamb of God!"

https://studybible.info/strongs/H563
https://studybible.info/strongs/H564

1 Chronicles 24: 1 - 4, 7, 14 (RSV):

[1] The divisions of the sons of Aaron were these. The sons of Aaron: Nadab, Abi'hu, Elea'zar, and Ith'amar.
[2] But Nadab and Abi'hu died before their father, and had no children, so Elea'zar and Ith'amar became the priests.
[3] With the help of Zadok of the sons of Elea'zar, and Ahim'elech of the sons of Ith'amar, David organized them according to the appointed duties in their service.
[4] Since more chief men were found among the sons of Elea'zar than among the sons of Ith'amar, they organized them under sixteen heads of fathers' houses of the sons of Elea'zar, and eight of the sons of Ith'amar.
...
[7] The first lot fell to Jehoi'arib, the second to Jedai'ah,
...
[14] the fifteenth to Bilgah, the sixteenth to Immer

One of the greatest Word-Plays in the History of Language.
Hidden.

CW
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neilgodfrey
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Re: Greek Loanwords in Mishnaic Hebrew

Post by neilgodfrey »

Charles Wilson wrote: Tue Jul 20, 2021 2:44 pm One of the greatest Word-Plays in the History of Language.
Hidden.

CW
I don't get it. Can you point out exactly where the wordplay lies? (I take it that it has something to do with a relationship between a priest named Immer and the Lamb declared by God -- but what is the significance? Or are you being tongue in cheek?)
Charles Wilson
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Re: Greek Loanwords in Mishnaic Hebrew

Post by Charles Wilson »

neilgodfrey wrote: Tue Jul 20, 2021 5:10 pmCan you point out exactly where the wordplay lies? (I take it that it has something to do with a relationship between a priest named Immer and the Lamb declared by God -- but what is the significance? Or are you being tongue in cheek?)
"Immer" is the 16th Mishmarot Group and - by Strong's H563 and H564 - is governed by the same Hebrew word as "Lamb". It is not that the Priest is named "Lamb" anymore that "John" might have been named "Bilgah". Importantly, it is that "Lamb" and "The 16th Mishmarot Group" are identified by the same word in Hebrew.

It would be a natural Word-Play if there were a Story of a Priest who was of Immer who survived a Conflagration at the Temple for a Passover in Jerusalem where 3000 people were massacred or something. The Group Immer might be called "IMMAR" in a Story. The Story might tell of how the Group survived the massacre. It might be referenced in other Stories:

Revelation 5: 6, in part (RSV):

[6] And between the throne and the four living creatures and among the elders, I saw a Lamb standing, as though it had been slain

"I saw a Lamb standing, as though it had been slain"

I'm sure Apologetix(R) would find someone who would assert that it would be possible to slaughter a lamb and have it still stand but there is a Symbolic Meaning here that is possible and that meaning would be:

There was historical work (in Josephus and Dio, for ex.) recording the death of Herod and the ascension of Archelaus in a rather dry manner where the two Groups Bilgah and Immer were on Duty for Passover and the Feast. There was a Coup against Herod planned that went terribly wrong.

"Immer" gets personalized into a Story of a Priest. The Priest is OF the Group Immer. He was not Named "Lamb" but some genius in the Roman Court realized that the Word-Play allowed the rewriting of the Story into the story of a savior-god loyal to Rome. John makes the Word-Play explicit to allow the reinstatement of Human Sacrifice:

John 11: 47 - 51 (RSV):

[47] So the chief priests and the Pharisees gathered the council, and said, "What are we to do? For this man performs many signs.
[48] If we let him go on thus, every one will believe in him, and the Romans will come and destroy both our holy place and our nation."
[49] But one of them, Ca'iaphas, who was high priest that year, said to them, "You know nothing at all;
[50] you do not understand that it is expedient for you that one man should die for the people, and that the whole nation should not perish."
[51] He did not say this of his own accord, but being high priest that year he prophesied that Jesus should die for the nation...

The Word-Play is that "Immer" may be called "Lamb" by the exact same word. In a Greek NT, "Amnos", etc. could never be involved with this Word-Play. The Word-Play is completely lost! The Tragedy of the death of thousands at the Passover can be rewritten to the glory of Rome even though the Herodians and Romans ordered the murder of the thousands. The Original Story may have been written in Hebrew or Aramaic or may have had its Roots in an "Objective" History given by Nicholas of Damascus, perhaps aided by Zakkai and others who survived. It may not have been a "story" of a Priest and of Peter.

The Word-Play, in a unique moment of History, provided the basis for the story that allowed the Romans to create a New Religion loyal to them and to justify the crushing of the Jewish Life and Culture.

In no way is this Tongue-in-Cheek. This is as serious as it gets.

Best to you,

CW
Giuseppe
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Re: Greek Loanwords in Mishnaic Hebrew

Post by Giuseppe »

Dubourg shows as "proof above the proofs" Luke 12:1:

Meanwhile, when a crowd of many thousands had gathered, so that they were trampling on one another, Jesus began to speak first to his disciples, saying: “Be on your guard against the yeast of the Pharisees, which is hypocrisy.

No relation in Greek between "yeast" and "hypocrisy", hence "which is" is nonsense.

In Hebrew the "yeast" and "hypocrisy" share the same gematria. "Which is" makes virtually sense.
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neilgodfrey
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Re: Greek Loanwords in Mishnaic Hebrew

Post by neilgodfrey »

Giuseppe wrote: Tue Jul 20, 2021 10:08 pm Dubourg shows as "proof above the proofs" Luke 12:1:

Meanwhile, when a crowd of many thousands had gathered, so that they were trampling on one another, Jesus began to speak first to his disciples, saying: “Be on your guard against the yeast of the Pharisees, which is hypocrisy.

No relation in Greek between "yeast" and "hypocrisy", hence "which is" is nonsense.

In Hebrew the "yeast" and "hypocrisy" share the same gematria. "Which is" makes virtually sense.
Yes, that is a good example. But one does not prove the entire thesis, not even a few examples. They are a start, though.
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Re: Greek Loanwords in Mishnaic Hebrew

Post by Giuseppe »

neilgodfrey wrote: Wed Jul 21, 2021 12:02 amBut one does not prove the entire thesis, not even a few examples. They are a start, though.
why? Isn't sufficient to apply the argument of the extreme improbability of a coincidence to prove the case?
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neilgodfrey
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Re: Greek Loanwords in Mishnaic Hebrew

Post by neilgodfrey »

Giuseppe wrote: Wed Jul 21, 2021 12:17 am
neilgodfrey wrote: Wed Jul 21, 2021 12:02 amBut one does not prove the entire thesis, not even a few examples. They are a start, though.
why? Isn't sufficient to apply the argument of the extreme improbability of a coincidence to prove the case?
No, far from it. Such a low bar of proof leads people to believe all sorts of nonsense. Coincidences do happen, and even improbable ones. They do happen. They don't prove God, fate, astrology, answered prayer, or anything else.

The case needs to be proved. That means alternative explanations need to be sought out and tested. In an adverserial court of law the prosecution has to have the same opportunity as the defence. Every opportunity to disprove the case has to be made before it can be accepted as anything more than one of a number of possibilities.

Many examples need to be found and tested. Alternative explanations for each case need to be assessed and also tested. Confirmation bias is the enemy.
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