Greek Loanwords in Mishnaic Hebrew

Discussion about the New Testament, apocrypha, gnostics, church fathers, Christian origins, historical Jesus or otherwise, etc.
StephenGoranson
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Re: Greek Loanwords in Mishnaic Hebrew

Post by StephenGoranson »

StephenGoranson wrote: ↑Tue Jul 27, 2021 5:14 am
It may be fair to say (correct me if I'm mistaken) that Greek and Aramaic each had a wider geographic spread, and more users, than Hebrew. Hebrew, in the late second temple period (say about 150 BCE to 70 CE) was still in use, as Qumran new composition mss prove. But, if a gospel was first written in Hebrew, that might suggest a smaller, more localized potential readership, in that version, than Greek or Aramaic.

neilgodfey wrote Tues Jul 27 2021 9:02 am
That is obviously true. What was originally composed in Hebrew had a more limited audience than the current model of gospel origins would postulate. A Hebrew-midrashic origin of the gospels suggests a quite different view of "Chrisitan" origins than the current models.

SG reply:
Excuse me if I wrote merely what is obvious, known to all.
I see the switch from Hebrew writing to Hebrew-midrashic, as if that is the only option for Hebrew, though Hebrew can be, and was, used for claims of history.
I may start a thread on the Qumran-view Teacher of Righteousness, who imo was a real person, and, if so, could be helpful in research on NT.
Giuseppe
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Re: Greek Loanwords in Mishnaic Hebrew

Post by Giuseppe »

StephenGoranson wrote: Wed Jul 28, 2021 4:17 am though Hebrew can be, and was, used for claims of history.
were Hebrew and gematria used for claims of history? Too much divine coincidence, then.
StephenGoranson
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Re: Greek Loanwords in Mishnaic Hebrew

Post by StephenGoranson »

My impression is that gematria is rather rare until later rabbinic and kabbalistic literature.
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Re: Greek Loanwords in Mishnaic Hebrew

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neilgodfrey
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Re: Greek Loanwords in Mishnaic Hebrew

Post by neilgodfrey »

StephenGoranson wrote: Wed Jul 28, 2021 4:17 am Excuse me if I wrote merely what is obvious, known to all.
Why bother? Unless, God forbid, you are here to treat others as idiots in need of your "common sense". That's not the normal thing people comment on unless there is some such motive.
StephenGoranson wrote: Wed Jul 28, 2021 4:17 amI see the switch from Hebrew writing to Hebrew-midrashic, as if that is the only option for Hebrew, though Hebrew can be, and was, used for claims of history.
Now what is this "switch" you talk about? Where does "only option" fit in with what has been said so far? And what does your point -- again obvious and known to all -- that Hebrew "can be and was used for 'claims' of history" -- as if someone just may have thought History cannot be written in Hebrew!

To say what is obvious, known to everyone, some people find it more satisfying to find ways to make gratuitous assumptions about unconventional ideas in order to demean and mock them than bothering to find out what they're actually talking about.

I wrote responses to Giuseppe explaining how Dubourg's thesis needs to be tested.

viewtopic.php?p=125101#p125101
viewtopic.php?p=125168#p125168
viewtopic.php?p=125173#p125173

You should read those comments because you might see a more positive response to how to approach an idea that is at odds with what "is obvious and known to all".
StephenGoranson wrote: Wed Jul 28, 2021 4:17 amI may start a thread on the Qumran-view Teacher of Righteousness, who imo was a real person, and, if so, could be helpful in research on NT.
Oh god forbid, not another Barbara Thiering nutter thread! (that's said with an ironic twist, by the way)
StephenGoranson
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Re: Greek Loanwords in Mishnaic Hebrew

Post by StephenGoranson »

Again ng, misinterpreting.
I did start a Teacher of Righteousness thread. (Barbara Thiering???)
You, of course, could comment there, if you care to check out my argument.
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neilgodfrey
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Re: Greek Loanwords in Mishnaic Hebrew

Post by neilgodfrey »

Giuseppe wrote: Wed Jul 28, 2021 4:40 am
StephenGoranson wrote: Wed Jul 28, 2021 4:17 am though Hebrew can be, and was, used for claims of history.
were Hebrew and gematria used for claims of history? Too much divine coincidence, then.
If I may but in here -- the term "claims to history" is an odd one in this context. It smacks of "history wars" debates.

More to the point, "historical writing" of the kind found in the historical books of the Bible (and one could include Esther, the Gospels and Acts here, as well as the first two Books of Maccabees), as well as among ancient Greeks and Romans, could and often did include what we would classify as fiction and myth. So what "claims to history" in the context of these writings is surely problematic.

But gematria is well known among Mesopotamian writings, including "claims of monarchs" in their inscribed public records, so given other influences of Mesopotamian literature on our OT texts we would reasonably expect to find some evidence of gematria there, too. Biblical gematria is well enough known in texts like Proverbs.

Dubourg's thesis, from what I understand so far, is that the interest in gematria that we find among later rabbinic writings can be traced back to the era when Christianity began to form and emerge as a distinct movement. Other later rabbinic ideas have been traced to this same period of Judaism so it is not without reason that the particular type of interest in gematria that Dubourg sees behind the NT has some basis. There is much to check out and test, though. Dubourg has certainly raised some fascinating questions to explore.
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neilgodfrey
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Re: Greek Loanwords in Mishnaic Hebrew

Post by neilgodfrey »

StephenGoranson wrote: Wed Jul 28, 2021 8:40 am Again ng, misinterpreting.
I did start a Teacher of Righteousness thread. (Barbara Thiering???)
You, of course, could comment there, if you care to check out my argument.
You missed my point. Sorry, too subtle for some.
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Re: Greek Loanwords in Mishnaic Hebrew

Post by Giuseppe »

neilgodfrey wrote: Wed Jul 28, 2021 9:40 am So what "claims to history" in the context of these writings is surely problematic.
true, however, as you know, Dubourg makes a precise point on the basic difference between him and a Tresmontant (=a historicist proponent of an original Hebrew): that the gematria (inferred from the original Hebrew Gospel about even only few points: i.e. the human parents of Jesus, the name of Jesus, etc) is fatal to even minimal "claims to History".
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mlinssen
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Re: Greek Loanwords in Mishnaic Hebrew

Post by mlinssen »

neilgodfrey wrote: Wed Jul 28, 2021 9:40 am
But gematria is well known among Mesopotamian writings, including "claims of monarchs" in their inscribed public records, so given other influences of Mesopotamian literature on our OT texts we would reasonably expect to find some evidence of gematria there, too. Biblical gematria is well enough known in texts like Proverbs.

Dubourg's thesis, from what I understand so far, is that the interest in gematria that we find among later rabbinic writings can be traced back to the era when Christianity began to form and emerge as a distinct movement. Other later rabbinic ideas have been traced to this same period of Judaism so it is not without reason that the particular type of interest in gematria that Dubourg sees behind the NT has some basis. There is much to check out and test, though. Dubourg has certainly raised some fascinating questions to explore.
Whatever can be found in Judaism and the Tanakh can hardly be related to the scribblings of the NT that, apart from anything else, establish far beyond any reasonable doubt that its authors were unfamiliar with Hebrew, Judaic customs, Judean geography, and the meaning and application of Tanakh material in the broadest sense of the word. Besides that, they were writing for a non-Hebrew audience (I'll give Paul a break there), in Greek infested with Latin loanwords, explicitly explaining and translating Hebrew words and habits

But you just use the term OT, as if that exists. And then you jump to the term biblical, as if you want to drag it even closer to Christianity, while you mention Proverbs as an example, which is a perfectly Judaic text in a perfectly Judaic book: the Tanakh, sometimes erroneously called OT by people who want to make their point by covert induction. The Bible doesn't exist in biblical academic, only in lay circles.
Then you link rabbinic writings to an era when Christianity began to form and emerge as a distinct movement in order to avoid naming late 2nd / early 3rd CE, and you even further contaminate that by then referring to that as this same period of Judaism, happily abusing yet another occasion to link Judaism to Christianity

You, sir, are a demagogue. And a particularly bad one at that
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