Re: Greek Loanwords in Mishnaic Hebrew
Posted: Tue Jul 20, 2021 2:49 am
Fine. I thought you asked about "Greek Loanwords in Mishnaic Hebrew." Learn Aramaic too, then.
Investigating the roots of western civilization (ye olde BC&H forum of IIDB lives on...)
https://earlywritings.com/forum/
Dubourg's hypothesis rests on the following:Secret Alias wrote: ↑Tue Jul 20, 2021 6:12 am I had my own uncertainty about this investigation. Mishnaic Hebrew fell into disuse shortly after the establishment of the Mishnah. It's a very limited subset of texts. Not sure HTF this relates to Christianity.
Dubourg's retroversions to Hebrew reveal a good number of puns that are absent from the Greek. There aren't a lot of options in the Hebrew, he says, that one can choose from to posit a Hebrew behind the Greek text, so it is likely that the puns were in the original text but lost in translation. So goes his theory.Secret Alias wrote: ↑Tue Jul 20, 2021 6:12 am As noted in Giuseppe's original post in another thread (assuming that's where this all comes from) it's very difficult to know how 'jokes' or puns work across languages.
I find some of Dubourg's discussion too huge a camel to swallow whole but at the same time I do wonder if the core of his hypothesis has something worth investigating. I am an optimist and always hold out hope that new perspectives can bring new insights to just about anything.Secret Alias wrote: ↑Tue Jul 20, 2021 6:12 amAll of this is beyond anyone's ability to know, critique or understand.
neilgodfrey wrote: ↑Tue Jul 20, 2021 12:41 pm...so it is likely that the puns were in the original text but lost in translation. So goes his theory.
John 1: 35 - 36 (RSV):I do wonder if the core of his hypothesis has something worth investigating...
I don't get it. Can you point out exactly where the wordplay lies? (I take it that it has something to do with a relationship between a priest named Immer and the Lamb declared by God -- but what is the significance? Or are you being tongue in cheek?)Charles Wilson wrote: ↑Tue Jul 20, 2021 2:44 pm One of the greatest Word-Plays in the History of Language.
Hidden.
CW
"Immer" is the 16th Mishmarot Group and - by Strong's H563 and H564 - is governed by the same Hebrew word as "Lamb". It is not that the Priest is named "Lamb" anymore that "John" might have been named "Bilgah". Importantly, it is that "Lamb" and "The 16th Mishmarot Group" are identified by the same word in Hebrew.neilgodfrey wrote: ↑Tue Jul 20, 2021 5:10 pmCan you point out exactly where the wordplay lies? (I take it that it has something to do with a relationship between a priest named Immer and the Lamb declared by God -- but what is the significance? Or are you being tongue in cheek?)
Yes, that is a good example. But one does not prove the entire thesis, not even a few examples. They are a start, though.Giuseppe wrote: ↑Tue Jul 20, 2021 10:08 pm Dubourg shows as "proof above the proofs" Luke 12:1:
Meanwhile, when a crowd of many thousands had gathered, so that they were trampling on one another, Jesus began to speak first to his disciples, saying: “Be on your guard against the yeast of the Pharisees, which is hypocrisy.
No relation in Greek between "yeast" and "hypocrisy", hence "which is" is nonsense.
In Hebrew the "yeast" and "hypocrisy" share the same gematria. "Which is" makes virtually sense.
why? Isn't sufficient to apply the argument of the extreme improbability of a coincidence to prove the case?neilgodfrey wrote: ↑Wed Jul 21, 2021 12:02 amBut one does not prove the entire thesis, not even a few examples. They are a start, though.
No, far from it. Such a low bar of proof leads people to believe all sorts of nonsense. Coincidences do happen, and even improbable ones. They do happen. They don't prove God, fate, astrology, answered prayer, or anything else.Giuseppe wrote: ↑Wed Jul 21, 2021 12:17 amwhy? Isn't sufficient to apply the argument of the extreme improbability of a coincidence to prove the case?neilgodfrey wrote: ↑Wed Jul 21, 2021 12:02 amBut one does not prove the entire thesis, not even a few examples. They are a start, though.