GakuseiDon wrote: ↑Fri Aug 20, 2021 9:34 pmSure, on some things we can have facts to start off with, and those represent a baseline that historians can work from.neilgodfrey wrote: ↑Fri Aug 20, 2021 7:48 pmNow I cannot agree at this point because this is where I find people taking certain claims of probability way too far with respect to history, no matter how ancient. Historians of ancient times are very careful to get their facts right and to work with facts that can be established as facts. Without them there can be no history. No historian works entirely with probabilities.GakuseiDon wrote: ↑Fri Aug 20, 2021 3:37 amYes, I agree. It's important to give up the idea that we can get to "facts" about ancient history, including that there was indeed a historical Jesus. On some things we can of course, but more often than not it comes down to a level of confidence about what is "more likely". That's where I see Bayes Theorem as a useful tool in helping to benchmark that level of confidence.
Yep, start with the facts, in this case, historical facts. After all, we are dealing with a narrative that contains reference to historical facts. (Luke 3.1 for example). The question then becomes what did the NT writers do, or what did they infer, what did they interpreted relative to their 'salvation' theory of Jewish history from these historical facts. How they composed their narrative around the historical facts they referenced is of interest. What mythology did did they use, what midrash, what prophetic interpretations etc - all have their part. But one can't let the literary composition of the narrative dominate the search for an understanding of the Jewish roots of early Christianity. In other words: We should not be putting the cart before the horse. The driving force is history, Jewish history, Hasmonean history.
If one was to discount historical facts as being relevant to the NT story - and prefer to view it's story as just a narrative of whatever colour, midrash, mythological, mystical theological - then by golly - shut the shop and go home....