Carrier, Aretas and Damascus

[Jax]

^ Could have gotten a couple coffees with that 3 bucks.

[maryhelena]

^ Could have gotten a couple coffees with that 3 bucks.

I wonder if Carrier even read the links you posted.....

Seems all he is interested in is his Jesus from Outer Space....and really, at the end of the day, all that theory is is interpretation of biblical text plus speculation resting on his interpretations.

[maryhelena]

It seems that Richard Carrier has removed this comment:

RICHARD CARRIER AUGUST 12, 2021, 3:04 PM

Thank you. Alas, no further responses to that rambling crank are necessary.

here

A comment in answer to this:

GIUSEPPE AUGUST 12, 2021, 1:05 AM

If of interest, Doudna’s new reply to your objections may expect your reply.

The above link still works - but the page won't refresh for the new long comment by our forum member, regarding Paul and Aretas III.

https://www.richardcarrier.info/archive ... ment-32803

Carrier's reply: ''Alas, speculation is idle''.

Alas, I could have hoped for more of a reply.

Maybe if you were prepared to pay his hourly rate .............150 dollars an hour....

[Jax]

^ Could have gotten a couple coffees with that 3 bucks.

I wonder if Carrier even read the links you posted.....

Seems all he is interested in is his Jesus from Outer Space....and really, at the end of the day, all that theory is is interpretation of biblical text plus speculation resting on his interpretations.

Probably saw that wall of text and just said "Na"

[maryhelena]

^ Could have gotten a couple coffees with that 3 bucks.

I wonder if Carrier even read the links you posted.....

Seems all he is interested in is his Jesus from Outer Space....and really, at the end of the day, all that theory is is interpretation of biblical text plus speculation resting on his interpretations.

Probably saw that wall of text and just said "Na"

Yep...too much work for $3......needed that $150.....

[Jax]

^ Could have gotten a couple coffees with that 3 bucks.

I wonder if Carrier even read the links you posted.....

Seems all he is interested in is his Jesus from Outer Space....and really, at the end of the day, all that theory is is interpretation of biblical text plus speculation resting on his interpretations.

Probably saw that wall of text and just said "Na"

Yep...too much work for $3......needed that $150.....

Oh well, at least I wasn't outed as an outright idiot or crank. One takes what one can get.

[maryhelena]

^ Could have gotten a couple coffees with that 3 bucks.

I wonder if Carrier even read the links you posted.....

Seems all he is interested in is his Jesus from Outer Space....and really, at the end of the day, all that theory is is interpretation of biblical text plus speculation resting on his interpretations.

Probably saw that wall of text and just said "Na"

Yep...too much work for $3......needed that $150.....

Oh well, at least I wasn't outed as an outright idiot or crank. One takes what one can get.

[yakovzutolmai]

What do we actually know about the war between Aretas IV and Antipas?

The Armenian history (which is very unreliable for this era) has Abgar Ukkama sending Assyrian troops to assist Aretas. Seems like part of the later, more blatant attempt to involve Edessa (in my opinion, not a kingdom prior to the second century) in gospel events. Nevertheless, how could have the Bathyran colonists not been involved in a conflict between Bosra and Tiberias?

Couldn't we see some "Saul" as an ambassador of Antipas being chased off to Damascus during this war?

Damascus was friendly with the Nabateans, an alliance of necessity with origins to the time of Ptolemy Menneus. I could see the city leaders opening the gates for Aretas, if an agent of Antipas was the enemy. I find this very plausible. The question is, what would be the cause for such an extraordinary measure?


Additionally, I've also noticed a parallel between this story of Paul and Aretas with the escape by Philip II Philoromaois from Antioch, where it was Sampsiceramus after him. If that legacy factored into the text, and some redactor wanted to attribute authorship to the character Saul, the city and Arab king in question would have to be swapped.

I have a personal hypothesis where Philip II Philoromaois was Ma'nu III Saflul of Osrhoene, and in this case almost certainly the "Tiridates" of Roman history responsible for taking Parthian princes hostage. In the Armenian history, the associated character is called Arsham. Moses of Chorene has Ananus as Arsham's Israelite vizier. This connects with Ananias who converted Izates of Adiabene, and was anti-circumcision.

If there is a connection between the author of Paul's corpus and Ananus, and if Ananus was in the service of Philip II, then Ananus could have been escaping from Sampsiceramus in Antioch around the 50s BC.

I believe the person whom Eusebius calls Philip I Epiphanes Philadelphus is called by Josephus as "Ptolemy Menneus". The start of the Roman era of Syria coinciding the the beginning of the reign of "Ma'nu II who was called God" in Osrhoene. Thus, Ptolemy's son Philippion is an obvious candidate for Philip II. Philippion marries Alexandra the Hasmonean, for which Ptolemy allegedly has him killed.

Perhaps this is the cause of Sampsiceramus coming to Antioch to depose Philip's brief rule there.

[maryhelena]

What do we actually know about the war between Aretas IV and Antipas?

The Armenian history (which is very unreliable for this era) has Abgar Ukkama sending Assyrian troops to assist Aretas. Seems like part of the later, more blatant attempt to involve Edessa (in my opinion, not a kingdom prior to the second century) in gospel events. Nevertheless, how could have the Bathyran colonists not been involved in a conflict between Bosra and Tiberias?

Couldn't we see some "Saul" as an ambassador of Antipas being chased off to Damascus during this war?

Damascus was friendly with the Nabateans, an alliance of necessity with origins to the time of Ptolemy Menneus. I could see the city leaders opening the gates for Aretas, if an agent of Antipas was the enemy. I find this very plausible.

The above is speculation.

The issue under consideration in this thread is dealing with an Aretas who controlled Damascus. History: Aretas III controlled Damascus during the years 85 to 72 b.c. and 69 to 64/63 b.c.

[yakovzutolmai]

The above is speculation.

The issue under consideration in this thread is dealing with an Aretas who controlled Damascus. History: Aretas III controlled Damascus during the years 85 to 72 b.c. and 69 to 64/63 b.c.

Then what is there to discuss?

Do the Roman epitomes conclusively discount that Aretas IV might have temporarily controlled Damascus during his conflict with Antipas? If not, then why would we say that Paul couldn't have faced this incident in the 30s? Even deference to Aretas, by Damascus city leaders, over Antipas and Herodian agents, could lead to the language seen in 2 Corinthians 11.

If we're transposing Paul to the 80s BCE, then we're certainly forced to speculate about a far greater number of issues. Which seems fruitful as discussion. I don't see the problem.

The issue invites speculation.