Carrier, Aretas and Damascus

Discussion about the New Testament, apocrypha, gnostics, church fathers, Christian origins, historical Jesus or otherwise, etc.
Charles Wilson
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Re: Carrier, Aretas and Damascus

Post by Charles Wilson »

maryhelena wrote: Sun Aug 01, 2021 6:58 amYep, Carrier is a tough nut to crack - but methinks there is a weakness there and sooner or later the cracks in Carrier's approach to the Jesus and Paul story will widen.
Again: http://www.caesarsmessiah.com/blog/rich ... -at-gadara
Giuseppe
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Re: Carrier, Aretas and Damascus

Post by Giuseppe »

Charles Wilson wrote: Sun Aug 01, 2021 2:12 pm
maryhelena wrote: Sun Aug 01, 2021 6:58 amYep, Carrier is a tough nut to crack - but methinks there is a weakness there and sooner or later the cracks in Carrier's approach to the Jesus and Paul story will widen.
Again: http://www.caesarsmessiah.com/blog/rich ... -at-gadara
I understand what you want to say. Atwill is really indebted (I would call him - and without offence, you - a very bad copy) to Cliff Carrington, who (not coincidentially just talking about Gadara), advanced independently from George Solomon the hypothesis that the historical Jesus was Jesus b. Sapphat (natural corollary of any scenario about Christian Origins after the War).

Hence, for me, the real challenge is between the Solomon (and Carrington, and Vermeiren, and Doudna) 's thesis and the Dubourg's thesis about the origins of Christianity.

In both the cases, Carrier is out game.
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maryhelena
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Re: Carrier, Aretas and Damascus

Post by maryhelena »

Charles Wilson wrote: Sun Aug 01, 2021 2:12 pm
maryhelena wrote: Sun Aug 01, 2021 6:58 amYep, Carrier is a tough nut to crack - but methinks there is a weakness there and sooner or later the cracks in Carrier's approach to the Jesus and Paul story will widen.
Again: http://www.caesarsmessiah.com/blog/rich ... -at-gadara
The Romans executed a King of the Jews in 37 b.c. - and Atwill wants Jews around the 70s to accept the Roman Titus as a Jewish messiah figure......

Yes, Cyrus is referred to as an 'anointed one' - an 'anointed one' who freed the Jews from Babylon who returned to rebuild their temple.

The Romans, in contrast, executed a Jewish King and went on to destroy the temple.

If - and it's one big stretch of the imagination - Rome somehow got Jews to accept Titus as their messiah figure - then, methinks we have an early case of Stockholm syndrome.....

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caesar%27s_Messiah

Atwill argues that the biblical character Jesus Christ is a typological representation of the Roman Emperor Titus.

Charles Wilson
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Re: Carrier, Aretas and Damascus

Post by Charles Wilson »

maryhelena --

1. The point of Posting the Blog Entry from Joe Atwill was less about Atwill and more about Carrier. Carrier behaves dreadfully.

2. However, while we're at it, there is an answer to your Objections:
Titus was the only person who "fulfilled the Prophecies of 'Jesus'":

Luke 21: 20, 27 - 28 (RSV):

[20] "But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation has come near.
***
[27] And then they will see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.
[28] Now when these things begin to take place, look up and raise your heads, because your redemption is drawing near."

Only Titus fulfills that role but you have to consider the entirety of the argument (See, for ex., "Fishers of Men" et. al.).

We're both big on History and especially Hasmonean History. The Players/Authors in this range from Mucianus to Nicholas of Damascus to Zakkai at Yavneh, to say nothing of Pliny the Younger, Tacitus and more. You, no doubt, see other hands at work in this. I believe I can show that, in fact, the Roman Program was not successful since there are too many Historical Markers showing that the Priesthood was against Herod and family and the Priesthood left its mark in the Data chronicling their fight.

Mark 9: 42 (RSV):

[42] "Whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin, it would be better for him if a great millstone were hung round his neck and he were thrown into the sea.

This is a Herod story since Herod did drop giant millstones in the sea in an attempt to build a Safe Harbor to ship grain from Egypt during the horrific Famine that had struck. The Priests fear that Herod will convince the people of his good will, abandoning God for "Free Food". They were proven correct in their worry about Herod.

I believe that I can show that the end of the Hasmonean FAMILY of Rulers is listed in the Gospels. You do not accept what I offer as evidence at all. You never have. Thus, our discussions reach a Dead End quite early, though I do indeed accept the uniqueness of Antigonus.

John 2: 20 (RSV):

[20] The Jews then said, "It has taken forty-six years to build this temple, and will you raise it up in three days?"

There it is. The entire argument against the Herodians and Romans with the argument for reinstating the Priesthood (with Proper "Piety and Purity". See Josephus.) The Death of Antigonus is there in that verse. You don't accept this. The End.

3. Which brings us back to Atwill. Yes, the Romans murdered and destroyed the Jewish State AND its religious Culture.

John 19: 15 (RSV):

[15] They cried out, "Away with him, away with him, crucify him!" Pilate said to them, "Shall I crucify your King?" The chief priests answered, "We have no king but Caesar."


4. I place this at the 9 CE Passover and Feast. It is 12 years after the Conflagration at the Temple where 3000+ died. The Story - MOST ALL of the Stories - have been Transvalued and even the High Priests and the Temple Apparatus agree - "To get along you have to go along."

Vespasian's seven Legions could be quite convincing. Just ask Rome and the Julio-Claudians.

Your work is very deep and, to me, convincing. Atwill's work is as deep and as convincing. Not at every Data Point but... We are all trying to get the Calendars and History correct.
I've found solace in the idea that the Priesthood fought back and left markers for their Fight in the Data. Without getting too Hegelian about it, there is a Synthesis that Maps out a Plausible and Consistent Path.

Best to you, maryhelena.

CW
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Jax
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Re: Carrier, Aretas and Damascus

Post by Jax »

maryhelena wrote: Sun Aug 01, 2021 12:21 pm
Jax wrote: Sun Aug 01, 2021 9:16 am
maryhelena wrote: Sun Aug 01, 2021 7:06 am
Mary, have you ever read any of my stuff investigating the possibility of Paul in a BCE setting? Would be happy to link you if you're interested.

Lane
I don't know the ins and outs of your theory on Paul - just picked up a hint or two that you find a B.C. setting for Paul of interest. So, let me have your theory - in a nutshell perhaps. Baring in mind that I don't hold to a historical Paul - but maybe you don't either i.e. not the NT Paul that the scholarly consensus places a conversion scenario shortly after the crucifixion of the gospel JC (Tiberius and Pilate). So maybe you have Paul = such and such historical figure of the first century B.C. ?

I'm thinking, as I do with the literary JC figure, that Paul is more a composite literary figure than that any one figure equals Paul. Greg Doudna has identified the Josephan John the baptizer figure as Hyrancus II - I would go a step further and identify the Josephan John figure and the gospel JtB figure as representing Hasmonean history. The forerunners of what became Christianity.

Of course once we are in first century B.C. territory we are back to the Hasmonean civil war - and possibly that civil war alluded to in the DSS with it's Teacher of Righteousness and Wicked Priest scenario. These years, 63 b.c. and 37 b.c. are vital years - and so often overlooked in the rush to place Christian origins post 70 c.e. I think, however, it was necessary to, as it were, behead Hasmonean history in order to further the NT drive towards a spiritual or philosophical kingdom. (nicely done re the NT story about JtB...) Even if the Hasmoneans were full on supporters of a spiritual christ movement - their own history of Jewish nationalism would be, for the Gentile newcomers, a strike against their change of heart, a huge challenge for Gentile converts. So, best to put all that on the backburner of christian origins. And it worked for 2000 years. But now - the modern mind is not prepared to take the NT story as history, it wants answers. To get those answers Hasmonean history has to be put back on the table.

Perhaps - Paul represents that Hasmonean conversion from Jewish nationalism to a philosophical kingdom of neither Jew nor Greek.
The gist of what I am proposing is that if there were a historical Paul, and I think that there was, at least at the very core of the letters 1 Corinthians, Philippians, and 1 Thessalonians, then said Paul being involved in the civil wars taking place in Macedonia and Greece in the 1st century BCE might help explain why he is writing letters to Greeks and Romans in recently created Roman veteran colonies in places like Corinth and Philippi. Certain passages in the letters seem to allude to campaigns that were taking place in Philippi and Asia during this century namely the siege of Brutus' camp at Philippi and the failed invasion of Parthia by Mark Anthony. Now, I'm not saying that this is the only reason that a historical Paul would find himself in places like Illyricum or have the desire to go to Spain but being on the side of Pompey in the civil war against Caesar would make being in Illyricum more plausible than mere happenstance and the Cantabrian war of Augustus would give Paul a real reason to want to go to Spain.

Nothing conclusive but interesting to contemplate. And yes, ToR is very important in this scenario as I feel that this is one character being referred to by this core Paul.

Here. viewtopic.php?f=11&t=3889

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=5446

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=5464

Let me know if you want more. Enjoy. :)
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maryhelena
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Re: Carrier, Aretas and Damascus

Post by maryhelena »

Charles Wilson wrote: Mon Aug 02, 2021 3:38 am maryhelena --

1. The point of Posting the Blog Entry from Joe Atwill was less about Atwill and more about Carrier. Carrier behaves dreadfully.
OK

2. However, while we're at it, there is an answer to your Objections:
Titus was the only person who "fulfilled the Prophecies of 'Jesus'":

Titus was involved in the siege of Jerusalem - anything about fulling prophecies is interpretation.

Luke 21: 20, 27 - 28 (RSV):

[20] "But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation has come near.
***
[27] And then they will see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.
[28] Now when these things begin to take place, look up and raise your heads, because your redemption is drawing near."

Only Titus fulfills that role but you have to consider the entirety of the argument (See, for ex., "Fishers of Men" et. al.).
Titus was at the siege of Jerusalem. That is history - the rest is interpretation...

We're both big on History and especially Hasmonean History. The Players/Authors in this range from Mucianus to Nicholas of Damascus to Zakkai at Yavneh, to say nothing of Pliny the Younger, Tacitus and more. You, no doubt, see other hands at work in this. I believe I can show that, in fact, the Roman Program was not successful since there are too many Historical Markers showing that the Priesthood was against Herod and family and the Priesthood left its mark in the Data chronicling their fight.

Mark 9: 42 (RSV):

[42] "Whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin, it would be better for him if a great millstone were hung round his neck and he were thrown into the sea.

This is a Herod story since Herod did drop giant millstones in the sea in an attempt to build a Safe Harbor to ship grain from Egypt during the horrific Famine that had struck. The Priests fear that Herod will convince the people of his good will, abandoning God for "Free Food". They were proven correct in their worry about Herod.

I believe that I can show that the end of the Hasmonean FAMILY of Rulers is listed in the Gospels. You do not accept what I offer as evidence at all. You never have. Thus, our discussions reach a Dead End quite early, though I do indeed accept the uniqueness of Antigonus.

John 2: 20 (RSV):

[20] The Jews then said, "It has taken forty-six years to build this temple, and will you raise it up in three days?"

There it is. The entire argument against the Herodians and Romans with the argument for reinstating the Priesthood (with Proper "Piety and Purity". See Josephus.) The Death of Antigonus is there in that verse. You don't accept this. The End.

3. Which brings us back to Atwill. Yes, the Romans murdered and destroyed the Jewish State AND its religious Culture.

John 19: 15 (RSV):

[15] They cried out, "Away with him, away with him, crucify him!" Pilate said to them, "Shall I crucify your King?" The chief priests answered, "We have no king but Caesar."


4. I place this at the 9 CE Passover and Feast. It is 12 years after the Conflagration at the Temple where 3000+ died. The Story - MOST ALL of the Stories - have been Transvalued and even the High Priests and the Temple Apparatus agree - "To get along you have to go along."

Vespasian's seven Legions could be quite convincing. Just ask Rome and the Julio-Claudians.

Your work is very deep and, to me, convincing. Atwill's work is as deep and as convincing. Not at every Data Point but... We are all trying to get the Calendars and History correct.
I've found solace in the idea that the Priesthood fought back and left markers for their Fight in the Data. Without getting too Hegelian about it, there is a Synthesis that Maps out a Plausible and Consistent Path.

Best to you, maryhelena.

CW
Roman conspiracy theories are far too late to be of any relevance in a search for the early Jewish roots of Christianity. The Romans may indeed be guilty of hijacking the early christian movement for political gain. But by then the Jewish Christian movement would have left it's Jewish nest. And, methinks, in the wider scheme of things, all to the benefit of those Hasmoneans that were involvement in the new spiritual or philosophical movement. After all, a philosophical movement of Jew and Gentile did not need to be reminded of it's nationalistic Jewish roots. Roman involvement in the Christian movement served the Hasmoneans well in their need to downplay Jewish nationalism. Blame the Romans for Christianity - and Hasmonean nationalism could be neutralized as a predicament in furthering the cause of neither Jew nor Greek in the new philosophical world view. Methinks the Hasmonean Jews were a step in front of any Roman challenge...

And where are we today? Still, so it seems, making up grand theories about 70 c.e. The Hasmoneans would be shaking their heads in disbelief - those Romans/Gentiles never did understand Jewish history. Methinks it's the Hasmoneans that would be having the last laugh at the Romans. Under the very nose of Rome the Hasmoneans got their point across - the pen is mightier than the sword.

(That the Roman Christians turned a Jewish philosophical world view into a story about a walking on water nobody type figure - well - eventually, ideas do loose their potency and find themselves languishing in their netherworld ......)
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maryhelena
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Re: Carrier, Aretas and Damascus

Post by maryhelena »

Jax wrote: Mon Aug 02, 2021 5:35 am
maryhelena wrote: Sun Aug 01, 2021 12:21 pm
Jax wrote: Sun Aug 01, 2021 9:16 am
maryhelena wrote: Sun Aug 01, 2021 7:06 am
Mary, have you ever read any of my stuff investigating the possibility of Paul in a BCE setting? Would be happy to link you if you're interested.

Lane
I don't know the ins and outs of your theory on Paul - just picked up a hint or two that you find a B.C. setting for Paul of interest. So, let me have your theory - in a nutshell perhaps. Baring in mind that I don't hold to a historical Paul - but maybe you don't either i.e. not the NT Paul that the scholarly consensus places a conversion scenario shortly after the crucifixion of the gospel JC (Tiberius and Pilate). So maybe you have Paul = such and such historical figure of the first century B.C. ?

I'm thinking, as I do with the literary JC figure, that Paul is more a composite literary figure than that any one figure equals Paul. Greg Doudna has identified the Josephan John the baptizer figure as Hyrancus II - I would go a step further and identify the Josephan John figure and the gospel JtB figure as representing Hasmonean history. The forerunners of what became Christianity.

Of course once we are in first century B.C. territory we are back to the Hasmonean civil war - and possibly that civil war alluded to in the DSS with it's Teacher of Righteousness and Wicked Priest scenario. These years, 63 b.c. and 37 b.c. are vital years - and so often overlooked in the rush to place Christian origins post 70 c.e. I think, however, it was necessary to, as it were, behead Hasmonean history in order to further the NT drive towards a spiritual or philosophical kingdom. (nicely done re the NT story about JtB...) Even if the Hasmoneans were full on supporters of a spiritual christ movement - their own history of Jewish nationalism would be, for the Gentile newcomers, a strike against their change of heart, a huge challenge for Gentile converts. So, best to put all that on the backburner of christian origins. And it worked for 2000 years. But now - the modern mind is not prepared to take the NT story as history, it wants answers. To get those answers Hasmonean history has to be put back on the table.

Perhaps - Paul represents that Hasmonean conversion from Jewish nationalism to a philosophical kingdom of neither Jew nor Greek.
The gist of what I am proposing is that if there were a historical Paul, and I think that there was, at least at the very core of the letters 1 Corinthians, Philippians, and 1 Thessalonians, then said Paul being involved in the civil wars taking place in Macedonia and Greece in the 1st century BCE might help explain why he is writing letters to Greeks and Romans in recently created Roman veteran colonies in places like Corinth and Philippi. Certain passages in the letters seem to allude to campaigns that were taking place in Philippi and Asia during this century namely the siege of Brutus' camp at Philippi and the failed invasion of Parthia by Mark Anthony. Now, I'm not saying that this is the only reason that a historical Paul would find himself in places like Illyricum or have the desire to go to Spain but being on the side of Pompey in the civil war against Caesar would make being in Illyricum more plausible than mere happenstance and the Cantabrian war of Augustus would give Paul a real reason to want to go to Spain.

Nothing conclusive but interesting to contemplate. And yes, ToR is very important in this scenario as I feel that this is one character being referred to by this core Paul.

Here. viewtopic.php?f=11&t=3889

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=5446

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=5464

Let me know if you want more. Enjoy. :)
OK thanks - I'll look at the links later this evening.
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Jax
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Re: Carrier, Aretas and Damascus

Post by Jax »

maryhelena wrote: Mon Aug 02, 2021 6:05 am
Jax wrote: Mon Aug 02, 2021 5:35 am
maryhelena wrote: Sun Aug 01, 2021 12:21 pm
Jax wrote: Sun Aug 01, 2021 9:16 am
maryhelena wrote: Sun Aug 01, 2021 7:06 am
Mary, have you ever read any of my stuff investigating the possibility of Paul in a BCE setting? Would be happy to link you if you're interested.

Lane
I don't know the ins and outs of your theory on Paul - just picked up a hint or two that you find a B.C. setting for Paul of interest. So, let me have your theory - in a nutshell perhaps. Baring in mind that I don't hold to a historical Paul - but maybe you don't either i.e. not the NT Paul that the scholarly consensus places a conversion scenario shortly after the crucifixion of the gospel JC (Tiberius and Pilate). So maybe you have Paul = such and such historical figure of the first century B.C. ?

I'm thinking, as I do with the literary JC figure, that Paul is more a composite literary figure than that any one figure equals Paul. Greg Doudna has identified the Josephan John the baptizer figure as Hyrancus II - I would go a step further and identify the Josephan John figure and the gospel JtB figure as representing Hasmonean history. The forerunners of what became Christianity.

Of course once we are in first century B.C. territory we are back to the Hasmonean civil war - and possibly that civil war alluded to in the DSS with it's Teacher of Righteousness and Wicked Priest scenario. These years, 63 b.c. and 37 b.c. are vital years - and so often overlooked in the rush to place Christian origins post 70 c.e. I think, however, it was necessary to, as it were, behead Hasmonean history in order to further the NT drive towards a spiritual or philosophical kingdom. (nicely done re the NT story about JtB...) Even if the Hasmoneans were full on supporters of a spiritual christ movement - their own history of Jewish nationalism would be, for the Gentile newcomers, a strike against their change of heart, a huge challenge for Gentile converts. So, best to put all that on the backburner of christian origins. And it worked for 2000 years. But now - the modern mind is not prepared to take the NT story as history, it wants answers. To get those answers Hasmonean history has to be put back on the table.

Perhaps - Paul represents that Hasmonean conversion from Jewish nationalism to a philosophical kingdom of neither Jew nor Greek.
The gist of what I am proposing is that if there were a historical Paul, and I think that there was, at least at the very core of the letters 1 Corinthians, Philippians, and 1 Thessalonians, then said Paul being involved in the civil wars taking place in Macedonia and Greece in the 1st century BCE might help explain why he is writing letters to Greeks and Romans in recently created Roman veteran colonies in places like Corinth and Philippi. Certain passages in the letters seem to allude to campaigns that were taking place in Philippi and Asia during this century namely the siege of Brutus' camp at Philippi and the failed invasion of Parthia by Mark Anthony. Now, I'm not saying that this is the only reason that a historical Paul would find himself in places like Illyricum or have the desire to go to Spain but being on the side of Pompey in the civil war against Caesar would make being in Illyricum more plausible than mere happenstance and the Cantabrian war of Augustus would give Paul a real reason to want to go to Spain.

Nothing conclusive but interesting to contemplate. And yes, ToR is very important in this scenario as I feel that this is one character being referred to by this core Paul.

Here. viewtopic.php?f=11&t=3889

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=5446

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=5464

Let me know if you want more. Enjoy. :)
OK thanks - I'll look at the links later this evening.
Here's a quick cheat sheet viewtopic.php?f=3&t=5464&start=40
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Jax
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Re: Carrier, Aretas and Damascus

Post by Jax »

Mary, I would just like to add that at present I am vetting the earliest copies of Paul that I can find in the original Greek to help remove any uncertainty in the wording of the letters that we now have due to 'helpful' translating and theology.

Wish me luck. :)
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Jax
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Re: Carrier, Aretas and Damascus

Post by Jax »

maryhelena wrote: Mon Aug 02, 2021 6:05 am OK thanks - I'll look at the links later this evening.
As someone here that has an interest and background in the history of the 1st century BCE, I really look forward to any and all critical observations that you can level onto this subject. :cheers:

Lane
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