Carrier, Aretas and Damascus
Posted: Mon Jul 19, 2021 5:52 am
How Do We Know the Apostle Paul Wrote His Epistles in the 50s A.D.?
Richard Carrier: JULY 17, 2021
https://www.richardcarrier.info/archives/18613
Without going into the actual arguments Carrier raises regarding Aretas III or Aretas IV, I thought this statement deserved some consideration:
Good question - Why was Aretas hunting Paul ?
I think it does matter which date one uses. The only historical dating is a B.C. date - Aretas III ruled Damascus until around 63 b.c.
From an historicists position on Paul a B.C. date presents problems - hence the desire to provide arguments for an A.D. dating for Aretas IV to have had some sort control over Damascus.
From an ahistoricist position on Paul, an Aretas III date hold out prospects for an answer to the ‘Why’ question. The answer involves considering the role Aretas III played in the Hasmonean civil war.
63 B.C. was not only an important time for Aretas III (he lost control of Damascus to Rome) it was also the time in which Jewish/Hasmonean sovereignty over Jerusalem was lost. The link between these two events is Aretas III. During the Hasmonean civil war Aretas III sided with Hyrcanus II:
Paul, Aretas and Damascus ? It’s history that the NT writers are alluding to here. Hyrcanus II went to Arabia, to Petra, to get help from Aretas III. Aristobulus II was ‘hunted’ by Aretas in an attempt to remove him from power.
Attempts to connect the NT figure of Paul to an Aretas IV in A.D. looses this connection of ‘Paul’ to the historical Jewish roots of early Christianity.
Paul’s conversion story in Acts ? From Jewish/Hasmonean nationalism to a philosophy of neither Jew nor Greek. Damascus and Aretas III - indicates it’s the Hasmonean civil war and the loss of sovereignty that began the move towards a ‘heavenly’, a spiritual or philosophical kingdom.
Paul’s escape over the walls of Damascus? ‘Damascus’, like Jericho , lies at the ground zero of the move towards the ‘promised land’. The heavenly Jerusalem, rather than the Jerusalem below, becomes the focus of the move towards the Gentiles.
Hasmonean history plus OT 'history' - the road to the Gentiles was opened in 63 B.C.
-------------------------
Setting the Stage: The Effects of the Roman Conquest and the Loss of Sovereignty
Nadav Sharon
https://www.academia.edu/2501352/Settin ... overeignty
===========
Corrected A.C. date to B.C. date.
Richard Carrier: JULY 17, 2021
https://www.richardcarrier.info/archives/18613
Without going into the actual arguments Carrier raises regarding Aretas III or Aretas IV, I thought this statement deserved some consideration:
It’s important to note that Paul never does tell us why Aretas or his ethnarch were hunting him. And whether Paul is writing in the 50s B.C. or A.D. we still can’t reconstruct why that would be.
Good question - Why was Aretas hunting Paul ?
I think it does matter which date one uses. The only historical dating is a B.C. date - Aretas III ruled Damascus until around 63 b.c.
From an historicists position on Paul a B.C. date presents problems - hence the desire to provide arguments for an A.D. dating for Aretas IV to have had some sort control over Damascus.
From an ahistoricist position on Paul, an Aretas III date hold out prospects for an answer to the ‘Why’ question. The answer involves considering the role Aretas III played in the Hasmonean civil war.
63 B.C. was not only an important time for Aretas III (he lost control of Damascus to Rome) it was also the time in which Jewish/Hasmonean sovereignty over Jerusalem was lost. The link between these two events is Aretas III. During the Hasmonean civil war Aretas III sided with Hyrcanus II:
Antiquities book 14.
A while afterward he took Hyrcanus, and stole out of the city by night, and went a great journey, and came and brought him to the city called Petra, where the palace of Aretas was; and as he was a very familiar friend of that king, he persuaded him to bring back Hyrcanus into Judea, and this persuasion he continued every day without any intermission. He also proposed to make him presents on that account. At length he prevailed with Aretas in his suit. Moreover, Hyrcanus promised him, that when he had been brought thither, and had received his kingdom, he would restore that country, and those twelve cities which his father Alexander had taken from the Arabians, which were these, Medaba, Naballo, Libias, Tharabasa, Agala, Athone, Zoar, Orone, Marissa, Rudda, Lussa, and Oruba……
AFTER these promises had been given to Aretas, he made an expedition against Aristobulus with an army of fifty thousand horse and foot, and beat him in the battle. And when after that victory many went over to Hyrcanus as deserters, Aristobulus was left desolate, and fled to Jerusalem; upon which the king of Arabia took all his army, and made an assault upon the temple, and besieged Aristobulus therein, the people still supporting Hyreanus, and assisting him in the siege, while none but the priests continued with Aristobulus. So Aretas united the forces of the Arabians and of the Jews together, and pressed on the siege vigorously……
In the mean time Pompey sent Scaurus into Syria,….. he came himself hastily into Judea.
He therefore made an agreement with Aristobulus, for the reasons before mentioned, and took his money, and raised the siege, and ordered Aretas to depart, or else he should be declared an enemy to the Romans. So Scaurus returned to Damascus again; and Aristobulus, with a great army, made war with Aretas and Hyrcanus, and fought them at a place called Papyron, and beat them in the battle, and slew about six thousand of the enemy, ……
When Pompey had heard the causes of these two, and had condemned Aristobulus for his violent procedure, he then spake civilly to them, and sent them away; and told them, that when he came again into their country, he would settle all their affairs, after he had first taken a view of the affairs of the Nabateans. In the mean time, he ordered them to be quiet; and treated Aristobulus civilly, lest he should make the nation revolt, and hinder his return; which yet Aristobulus did; for without expecting any further determination, which Pompey had promised them, he went to the city Delius, and thence marched into Judea…..
At this behavior Pompey was angry; and taking with him that army which he was leading against the Nabateans, and the auxiliaries that came from Damascus, and the other parts of Syria, with the other Roman legions which he had with him, he made an expedition against Aristobulus;……
At this Pompey was very angry, and put Aristobulus into prison,….
Now the occasions of this misery which came upon Jerusalem were Hyrcanus and Aristobulus, by raising a sedition one against the other; for now we lost our liberty, and became subject to the Romans, and were deprived of that country which we had gained by our arms from the Syrians, and were compelled to restore it to the Syrians. Moreover, the Romans exacted of us, in a little time, above ten thousand talents; and the royal authority, which was a dignity formerly bestowed on those that were high priests, by the right of their family, became the property of private men……………….He also carried bound along with him Aristobulus and his children; for he had two daughters, and as many sons; the one of which ran away, but the younger, Antigonus, was carried to Rome, together with his sisters…
SCAURUS made now an expedition against Petrea, in Arabia, and set on fire all the places round about it, because of the great difficulty of access to it. And as his army was pinched by famine, Antipater furnished him with corn out of Judea, and with whatever else he wanted, and this at the command of Hyrcanus.
A while afterward he took Hyrcanus, and stole out of the city by night, and went a great journey, and came and brought him to the city called Petra, where the palace of Aretas was; and as he was a very familiar friend of that king, he persuaded him to bring back Hyrcanus into Judea, and this persuasion he continued every day without any intermission. He also proposed to make him presents on that account. At length he prevailed with Aretas in his suit. Moreover, Hyrcanus promised him, that when he had been brought thither, and had received his kingdom, he would restore that country, and those twelve cities which his father Alexander had taken from the Arabians, which were these, Medaba, Naballo, Libias, Tharabasa, Agala, Athone, Zoar, Orone, Marissa, Rudda, Lussa, and Oruba……
AFTER these promises had been given to Aretas, he made an expedition against Aristobulus with an army of fifty thousand horse and foot, and beat him in the battle. And when after that victory many went over to Hyrcanus as deserters, Aristobulus was left desolate, and fled to Jerusalem; upon which the king of Arabia took all his army, and made an assault upon the temple, and besieged Aristobulus therein, the people still supporting Hyreanus, and assisting him in the siege, while none but the priests continued with Aristobulus. So Aretas united the forces of the Arabians and of the Jews together, and pressed on the siege vigorously……
In the mean time Pompey sent Scaurus into Syria,….. he came himself hastily into Judea.
He therefore made an agreement with Aristobulus, for the reasons before mentioned, and took his money, and raised the siege, and ordered Aretas to depart, or else he should be declared an enemy to the Romans. So Scaurus returned to Damascus again; and Aristobulus, with a great army, made war with Aretas and Hyrcanus, and fought them at a place called Papyron, and beat them in the battle, and slew about six thousand of the enemy, ……
When Pompey had heard the causes of these two, and had condemned Aristobulus for his violent procedure, he then spake civilly to them, and sent them away; and told them, that when he came again into their country, he would settle all their affairs, after he had first taken a view of the affairs of the Nabateans. In the mean time, he ordered them to be quiet; and treated Aristobulus civilly, lest he should make the nation revolt, and hinder his return; which yet Aristobulus did; for without expecting any further determination, which Pompey had promised them, he went to the city Delius, and thence marched into Judea…..
At this behavior Pompey was angry; and taking with him that army which he was leading against the Nabateans, and the auxiliaries that came from Damascus, and the other parts of Syria, with the other Roman legions which he had with him, he made an expedition against Aristobulus;……
At this Pompey was very angry, and put Aristobulus into prison,….
Now the occasions of this misery which came upon Jerusalem were Hyrcanus and Aristobulus, by raising a sedition one against the other; for now we lost our liberty, and became subject to the Romans, and were deprived of that country which we had gained by our arms from the Syrians, and were compelled to restore it to the Syrians. Moreover, the Romans exacted of us, in a little time, above ten thousand talents; and the royal authority, which was a dignity formerly bestowed on those that were high priests, by the right of their family, became the property of private men……………….He also carried bound along with him Aristobulus and his children; for he had two daughters, and as many sons; the one of which ran away, but the younger, Antigonus, was carried to Rome, together with his sisters…
SCAURUS made now an expedition against Petrea, in Arabia, and set on fire all the places round about it, because of the great difficulty of access to it. And as his army was pinched by famine, Antipater furnished him with corn out of Judea, and with whatever else he wanted, and this at the command of Hyrcanus.
Paul, Aretas and Damascus ? It’s history that the NT writers are alluding to here. Hyrcanus II went to Arabia, to Petra, to get help from Aretas III. Aristobulus II was ‘hunted’ by Aretas in an attempt to remove him from power.
Attempts to connect the NT figure of Paul to an Aretas IV in A.D. looses this connection of ‘Paul’ to the historical Jewish roots of early Christianity.
Paul’s conversion story in Acts ? From Jewish/Hasmonean nationalism to a philosophy of neither Jew nor Greek. Damascus and Aretas III - indicates it’s the Hasmonean civil war and the loss of sovereignty that began the move towards a ‘heavenly’, a spiritual or philosophical kingdom.
Paul’s escape over the walls of Damascus? ‘Damascus’, like Jericho , lies at the ground zero of the move towards the ‘promised land’. The heavenly Jerusalem, rather than the Jerusalem below, becomes the focus of the move towards the Gentiles.
Hasmonean history plus OT 'history' - the road to the Gentiles was opened in 63 B.C.
-------------------------
Setting the Stage: The Effects of the Roman Conquest and the Loss of Sovereignty
Nadav Sharon
https://www.academia.edu/2501352/Settin ... overeignty
===========
Corrected A.C. date to B.C. date.