The peculiar case of the parable of the colostrum (aka 'leaven')

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mlinssen
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Re: The peculiar case of the parable of the colostrum (aka 'leaven')

Post by mlinssen »

Leucius Charinus wrote: Mon Mar 06, 2023 9:16 pm To repeat myself (again) it must be clear by now to yourself and everyone else that you are simultaneously prosecuting two separate and distinct theses. The first is that the Coptic to English translations of the Gospel of Thomas (and other tracts in the NHL) are seriously impaired because the translators have imposed unacceptable and erroneous transcriptions on the Coptic sources which they are carrying over from the canonical gospels. The second thesis is the argument for Thomasine priority over the canonical gospels.

Thesis One - You must know that I have been and still am a strong supporter of this thesis, and that many of the contributors in this discussion forum are on side with this to varying degrees. I look forward to reading further on what you find in Thomas and elsewhere in the NHL (and outside it) in regard to removing the Christian bias that currently plagues the Coptic transcriptions and translations. (EG: Thomas writes "colostrum")

Thesis Two - As I have stated before this is a far more difficult thesis to prosecute. I have stated it cannot be ruled out but it also cannot be ruled in. Especially by arguments via probability because these cut two ways and by definition cannot guarantee the objective certainty which you are associating with its truth value.

I apply exactly the same provisional conclusion about my own thesis that the "NTA" are a post Nicene literary reaction to the "NTC". Here is what I recently wrote about my own theory:
LC wrote:Neither claim can be proven. Both are viable. Further evidence is required.

SEE: viewtopic.php?p=150680#p150680
I have a few questions about redaction criticism and your claim that Thomasine priority is solely based on redaction criticism

Redaction criticism,
also called Redaktionsgeschichte, Kompositionsgeschichte or Redaktionstheologie, is a critical method for the study of biblical texts. Redaction criticism regards the author of the text as editor (redactor) of the source materials. Unlike its parent discipline, form criticism, redaction criticism does not look at the various parts of a narrative to discover the original genre. Instead, it focuses on how the redactor shaped and moulded the narrative to express theological and ideological goals.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Redaction_criticism

I am wondering whether redaction criticism is the tool by which Thomasine priority can be successfully argued. On the above page is a link to:

Historical criticism

Historical criticism, also known as the historical-critical method or higher criticism, is a branch of criticism that investigates the origins of ancient texts in order to understand "the world behind the text".[1]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historical_criticism

Whereas redaction criticism uses material internal to the texts historical criticism has the capacity to look external to the texts and ask questions like when did the texts first appear as objects in antiquity. Questions concerning priority and textual dependence IMO probably need the application of both forms of criticism - internal and external.

So in summary I think your thesis 1 is on solid ground and I look forward to seeing it take off among new academics who can perceive that the earlier Christian transcribers and translators of Coptic manuscripts are heavily biased by their canonical gospel centricity.
In regard to your thesis 2 and the claims for and against it, neither the claims for or against it can IMO be proven with any degree of certainty. Both sides of the arguments are viable, and further evidence will be required to advance one side over the other.
Well, the entire question of course is: why do Guillaumont, Layton, Lambdin, even Doresse, yet also a Gathercole, DeConick, Plisch, Quispel, and even a Schenke and Till falsify this logion?
Why don't they simply translate what it says, OR emend it and then translate what that says?
That is what they all did to logion 74, although no one ever commented to it save for Gathercole who demonstrates that he doesn't know WHY emendation (of the articles, most certainly not of the nouns!) would be justified

Why, Pete? It seems obvious to me that Thomas is not allowed to say what he says because it would demonstrate his priority over the canonicals. Which is also the same reason for Attridge, Gathercole and Plisch falsifying the Greek critical apparatus, their emendations, and their translations, before falsifying the Coptic translation so that both can finally get harmonised, evoking the suggestion that there's "nothing to see here"
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Leucius Charinus
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Re: The peculiar case of the parable of the colostrum (aka 'leaven')

Post by Leucius Charinus »

mlinssen wrote: Tue Mar 07, 2023 1:36 amWell, the entire question of course is: why do Guillaumont, Layton, Lambdin, even Doresse, yet also a Gathercole, DeConick, Plisch, Quispel, and even a Schenke and Till falsify this logion?
Why don't they simply translate what it says, OR emend it and then translate what that says?
That is what they all did to logion 74, although no one ever commented to it save for Gathercole who demonstrates that he doesn't know WHY emendation (of the articles, most certainly not of the nouns!) would be justified

Why, Pete? It seems obvious to me that Thomas is not allowed to say what he says because it would demonstrate his priority over the canonicals. Which is also the same reason for Attridge, Gathercole and Plisch falsifying the Greek critical apparatus, their emendations, and their translations, before falsifying the Coptic translation so that both can finally get harmonised, evoking the suggestion that there's "nothing to see here"
Why? Because they are consciously or unconsciously biased in their transcriptions so as to attempt to have Thomas conform to an orthodox-centric canonical-gospel-centric paradigm which has been shoved down everyone's throats since antiquity. Your thesis 1 concerning these transcription ERRORS is sound (IMO). The notion of the "kingdom of heaven" is not the same as the notion of the "kingdom of the heavens". And so it goes on.

You may be interested in contacting Gregory Crane, interviewed recently on gnostic informant. He is the editor-in-chief behind the creation of the Perseus Project. Towards the end of the vid he talks about expanding the Perseus base into languages other than Greek and Latin and mentions, among other languages, Coptic. Sooner or later these transcription ERRORS will have to be acknowledged by the Coptic translation communities and in time some form of collaborative online version of the entire NHL will be engineered.

VID: https://youtu.be/0k_Sfn-j6KY?t=12
Why Thucydides was a Game Changer | Gregory Crane
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Re: The peculiar case of the parable of the butter

Post by Peter Kirby »

I'm going to do you a solid here and try to address both questions:

(1) What is the meaning of the word here?
(2) Which form of the parable is earlier?

The second question is obviously more difficult, but I will offer my speculations, as you have yours along with your arguments. And I hope that the detail-oriented approach that I take explains why this takes time.
mlinssen wrote: Mon Jul 19, 2021 2:49 pm Thomas logion 96:

[ⲡⲉϫⲉ] ⲓ̅ⲥ̅ ϫⲉ ⲧ ⲙⲛ̄ⲧ ⲉⲣⲟ ⲙ̄ ⲡ ⲉⲓⲱⲧ` ⲉ ⲥ ⲧⲛ̄ⲧⲱ[ⲛ ⲉ ⲩ] ⲥϩⲓⲙⲉ
ⲡⲉϫⲉ- ⲓⲥ ϫⲉ- ⲧ- ⲙⲛⲧ- ⲣⲣⲟ ⲛ- ⲡ- ⲉⲓⲱⲧ ⲉ- ⸗ⲥ ⲧⲟⲛⲧⲛ+ ⲉ- ⲟⲩ- ⲥϩⲓⲙⲉ
said IS : the(F) reign-of(F) king of the father she is-comparable to a woman

ⲁ ⲥ ϫⲓ ⲛ̄ ⲟⲩ ⲕⲟⲩⲉⲓ ⲛ̄ ⲥⲁⲉⲓⲣ [ⲁ ⲥ ϩⲟ]ⲡ ϥ` ϩⲛ̄ ⲟⲩ ϣⲱⲧⲉ
ⲁ- ⸗ⲥ ϫⲓ ⲛ- ⲟⲩ- ⲕⲟⲩⲓ ⲛ- ⲥⲓⲣ ⲁ- ⸗ⲥ ϩⲱⲡ ⲛⲧⲟϥ ϩⲛ- ⲟⲩ- ϣⲱⲧⲉ
did she take [dop] a little [al] first-milk did she hide him in a(n) dough

ⲁ ⲥ ⲁⲁ ϥ ⲛ̄ ϩⲛ̄ ⲛ[ⲟϭ ⲛ̄] ⲛ ⲟⲉⲓⲕ` ⲡⲉⲧ ⲉⲩⲙ̄ ⲙⲁⲁϫⲉ ⲙ̄ⲙⲟ ϥ ⲙⲁ[ⲣⲉ ϥ ⲥⲱ]ⲧⲙ̄
ⲁ- ⸗ⲥ ⲉⲓⲣⲉ ⲛⲧⲟϥ ⲛ- ϩⲟⲉⲓⲛⲉ ⲛⲟϭ ⲛ- ⲛ- ⲟⲉⲓⲕ ⲡⲉⲧ ⲟⲩⲛ- ⲙⲁⲁϫⲉ ⲙⲙⲟ⸗ ⲛⲧⲟϥ ⲙⲁⲣⲉ- ⲛⲧⲟϥ ⲥⲱⲧⲙ
did she make-be him of some(PL) great [al] loaf he-who there-be ear within he let! he hear

I decided to approach the question of the meaning of the Coptic here by looking not at dictionaries but at ancient uses of the word. My search turned up uses in the Sahidic Coptic translation of the Old Testament. To be able to understand these uses better, I decided to compare them to another translation where I already have more confidence in understanding the meanings of the words, specifically Greek.

It seems to me that we can easily build up a small glossary of relevant words in Greek.

milk γάλα
butter βούτυρον
colostrum πῦαρ
leaven ζύμη

I used the Annis Scriptorium website. The instances of the Sahidic Coptic word that I found were: Genesis 18:8, Deuteronomy 32:13, Judges 5:25, 1 Samuel 17:18, Job 20:17, Job 29:6, Isaiah 7:15, and Isaiah 7:22.

In each instance, I will provide the Septuagint text in Greek and Brenton's Septuagint translation in English, glossing the Sahidic Coptic word according to its corresponding appearance in the Sahidic Coptic text. For easier reading, I will split each Coptic word with the | symbol.

Genesis 18:8 ἔλαβεν δὲ βούτυρον [ⲛ|ⲟⲩ|ⲥⲁⲓⲣⲉ] καὶ γάλα [ⲙⲛ|ⲟⲩ|ⲉⲣⲱⲧⲉ] καὶ τὸ μοσχάριον ὃ ἐποίησεν καὶ παρέθηκεν αὐτοῖς καὶ ἐφάγοσαν αὐτὸς δὲ παρειστήκει αὐτοῖς ὑπὸ τὸ δένδρον And he took butter [ⲛ|ⲟⲩ|ⲥⲁⲓⲣⲉ] and milk [ⲙⲛ|ⲟⲩ|ⲉⲣⲱⲧⲉ], and the calf which he had dressed; and he set them before them, and they did eat, and he stood by them under the tree.
Deuteronomy 32:14 βούτυρον [ⲟⲩ|ⲥⲁⲓⲣⲉ] βοῶν καὶ γάλα [ⲙⲛ|ⲟⲩ|ⲉⲣⲱⲧⲉ] προβάτων μετὰ στέατος ἀρνῶν καὶ κριῶν υἱῶν ταύρων καὶ τράγων μετὰ στέατος νεφρῶν πυροῦ καὶ αἷμα σταφυλῆς ἔπιον οἶνον Butter [ⲟⲩ|ⲥⲁⲓⲣⲉ] of cows, and milk [ⲙⲛ|ⲟⲩ|ⲉⲣⲱⲧⲉ] of sheep, with the fat of lambs and rams, of calves and kids, with fat of kidneys of wheat; and he drank wine, the blood of the grape.
Judges 5:25 ὕδωρ ᾔτησεν αὐτήν καὶ γάλα [ⲁ|ⲥ|ϯⲉⲣⲱⲧⲉ] ἔδωκεν αὐτῷ ἐν λακάνῃ ἰσχυρῶν προσήγγισεν βούτυρον [ⲛ|ⲟⲩ|ⲥⲁⲓⲣⲉ] He asked for water, she gave him milk [ⲁ|ⲥ|ϯⲉⲣⲱⲧⲉ] in a dish; she brought butter [ⲛ|ⲟⲩ|ⲥⲁⲓⲣⲉ] of princes.
1 Samuel 17:18 absent absent
Job 20:17 μὴ ἴδοι ἄμελξιν [ⲛ|ⲛⲉϥ|ⲟϩⲉ] νομάδων μηδὲ νομὰς μέλιτος καὶ βουτύρου [ⲙ|ⲡ|ⲥⲁⲓⲣⲉ] Let him not see the milk [milking -PK] [ⲛ|ⲛⲉϥ|ⲟϩⲉ] of the pastures, nor the supplies of honey and butter.
Job 29:6 ὅτε ἐχέοντό μου αἱ ὁδοὶ βουτύρῳ [ⲛ|ⲥⲁⲓⲣⲉ] τὰ δὲ ὄρη μου ἐχέοντο γάλακτι [ⲙ|ⲡ|ⲉⲣⲱⲧⲉ] when my ways were moistened with butter [ⲛ|ⲥⲁⲓⲣⲉ], and the mountains flowed for me with milk [ⲙ|ⲡ|ⲉⲣⲱⲧⲉ]
Isaiah 7:15 βούτυρον [ⲥⲁⲓⲣⲉ] καὶ μέλι φάγεται πρὶν ἢ γνῶναι αὐτὸν ἢ προελέσθαι πονηρὰ ἐκλέξεται τὸ ἀγαθόν Butter [ⲥⲁⲓⲣⲉ] and honey shall he eat, before he knows either to prefer evil, or choose the good.
Isaiah 7:22 καὶ ἔσται ἀπὸ τοῦ πλεῖστον ποιεῖν γάλα [ⲉⲣⲱⲧⲉ] βούτυρον [ⲥⲁⲓⲣⲉ] καὶ μέλι φάγεται πᾶς ὁ καταλειφθεὶς ἐπὶ τῆς γῆς And it shall come to pass from their drinking an abundance of milk [ⲉⲣⲱⲧⲉ], that every one that is left on the land shall eat butter [ⲥⲁⲓⲣⲉ] and honey.

From these examples, we can create a table of positive correlations (nearly complete for ⲥⲁⲓⲣⲉ, incomplete for ⲉⲣⲱⲧⲉ and ⲟϩⲉ, which have additional examples):

ⲥⲁⲓⲣⲉ βούτυρον (100%) butter (100%)
ⲉⲣⲱⲧⲉ γάλα (100%) milk (100%)
ⲟϩⲉ ἄμελξιν (once) milking (once)

A search for milk turns up ⲉⲣⲱⲧⲉ (as expected) and words derived from it, ⲥⲁⲓⲣ (Crum's "first milk"/"butter"), and ϩⲱⲣ ("squeeze out," i.e. to milk). I encountered all of these Sahidic Coptic words when searching for ⲥⲁⲓⲣⲉ. And so far I consistently found them used such that ⲉⲣⲱⲧⲉ meant milk (γάλα), ⲥⲁⲓⲣⲉ meant butter (βούτυρον), and ⲟϩⲉ meant milking (ἄμελξιν).

Now for a change of subject, to "leaven," which we have not yet found. There are three lemmas that show up when I search for leaven: ⲑⲁⲃ, ⲕⲱⲃ, and ⲥⲉⲣ. There are no examples of root word ⲥⲉⲣ used as leaven in my search. The only examples of ⲕⲱⲃ that I find are in Pistis Sophia, the instructions of Pachomius, and the life of John Kalybites. So in no case does either of the other two Sahidic Coptic words get used as a translation for the word "leaven" in the New Testament. That leaves ⲑⲁⲃ.

There are very many other examples of ⲉⲣⲱⲧⲉ and many examples for ⲑⲁⲃ, so I will present a sample, focusing on the New Testament in Sahidic Coptic. Here are all examples of ⲉⲣⲱⲧⲉ in the New Testament.

1 Corinthians 3:2 γάλα [ⲉⲣⲱⲧⲉ] ὑμᾶς ἐπότισα καὶ οὐ βρῶμα οὔπω γὰρ ἠδύνασθε ἀλλ᾽ οὖτε ἔτι νῦν δύνασθε I fed you with milk [ⲉⲣⲱⲧⲉ], not with meat; for you weren't yet ready. Indeed, not even now are you ready
1 Corinthians 9:7 τίς στρατεύεται ἰδίοις ὀψωνίοις ποτέ τίς φυτεύει ἀμπελῶνα καὶ ἐκ τοῦ καρποῦ αὐτοῦ οὐκ ἐσθίει ἢ τίς ποιμαίνει ποίμνην καὶ ἐκ τοῦ γάλακτος [ⲙ|ⲡⲉϥ|ⲉⲣⲱⲧⲉ] τῆς ποίμνης οὐκ ἐσθίει What soldier ever serves at his own expense? Who plants a vineyard, and doesn't eat of its fruit? Or who feeds a flock, and doesn't drink from the flock's milk? [ⲙ|ⲡⲉϥ|ⲉⲣⲱⲧⲉ]
Hebrews 5:12 καὶ γὰρ ὀφείλοντες εἶναι διδάσκαλοι διὰ τὸν χρόνον πάλιν χρείαν ἔχετε τοῦ διδάσκειν ὑμᾶς τινὰ τὰ στοιχεῖα τῆς ἀρχῆς τῶν λογίων τοῦ θεοῦ καὶ γεγόνατε χρείαν ἔχοντες γάλακτος [ⲛ|ⲟⲩ|ⲉⲣⲱⲧⲉ] καὶ οὐ στερεᾶς τροφῆς For when by reason of the time you ought to be teachers, you again need to have someone teach you the rudiments of the first principles of the oracles of God. You have come to need milk [ⲛ|ⲟⲩ|ⲉⲣⲱⲧⲉ], and not solid food.
Hebrews 5:13 πᾶς γὰρ ὁ μετέχων γάλακτος [ϩⲙ|ⲡ|ⲉⲣⲱⲧⲉ] ἄπειρος λόγου δικαιοσύνης νήπιος γάρ ἐστιν For everyone who lives on milk [ϩⲙ|ⲡ|ⲉⲣⲱⲧⲉ] is not experienced in the word of righteousness, for he is a baby.
1 Peter 2:2 ὡς ἀρτιγέννητα βρέφη τὸ λογικὸν ἄδολον γάλα [ⲡ|ⲉⲣⲱⲧⲉ] ἐπιποθήσατε ἵνα ἐν αὐτῷ αὐξηθῆτε as newborn babies, long for the pure milk [ⲡ|ⲉⲣⲱⲧⲉ] of the Word, that you may grow thereby,

Now ⲑⲁⲃ, this time presenting all examples in the New Testament gospels.

Matthew 13:33 Ἄλλην παραβολὴν ἐλάλησεν αὐτοῖς· Ὁμοία ἐστὶν ἡ βασιλεία τῶν οὐρανῶν ζύμῃ [ⲉ|ⲩ|ⲑⲁⲃ] ἣν λαβοῦσα γυνὴ ἐνέκρυψεν εἰς ἀλεύρου σάτα τρία ἕως οὗ ἐζυμώθη [ϣⲁⲛⲧⲉ|ϥ|ϫⲓⲑⲁⲃ] ὅλον He spoke another parable to them. 'The Kingdom of Heaven is like yeast [ⲉ|ⲩ|ⲑⲁⲃ], which a woman took, and hid in three measures of meal, until it was all leavened [ϣⲁⲛⲧⲉ|ϥ|ϫⲓⲑⲁⲃ].'
Matthew 16:6 ὁ δὲ Ἰησοῦς εἶπεν αὐτοῖς Ὁρᾶτε καὶ προσέχετε ἀπὸ τῆς ζύμης [ϩⲙ|ⲡⲉ|ⲑⲁⲃ] τῶν Φαρισαίων καὶ Σαδδουκαίων Jesus said to them, 'Take heed and beware of the yeast [ϩⲙ|ⲡⲉ|ⲑⲁⲃ] of the Pharisees and Sadducees.'
Matthew 16:11 πῶς οὐ νοεῖτε ὅτι οὐ περὶ ἄρτοῦ εἶπον ὑμῖν προσέχειν ἀπὸ τῆς ζύμης [ϩⲙ|ⲡⲉ|ⲑⲁⲃ] τῶν Φαρισαίων καὶ Σαδδουκαίων How is it that you don't perceive that I didn't speak to you concerning bread? But beware of the yeast [ϩⲙ|ⲡⲉ|ⲑⲁⲃ] of the Pharisees and Sadducees.'
Matthew 16:12 τότε συνῆκαν ὅτι οὐκ εἶπεν προσέχειν ἀπὸ τῆς ζύμης [ⲉⲧⲃⲉ|ⲡⲉ|ⲑⲁⲃ] τοῦ ἄρτου, ἀλλ᾽ ἀπὸ τῆς διδαχῆς τῶν Φαρισαίων καὶ Σαδδουκαίων Then they understood that he didn't tell them to beware of the yeast [ⲉⲧⲃⲉ|ⲡⲉ|ⲑⲁⲃ] of bread, but of the teaching of the Pharisees and Sadducees.
Mark 8:15 αὶ διεστέλλετο αὐτοῖς λέγων, Ὁρᾶτε βλέπετε ἀπὸ τῆς ζύμης [ⲉ|ⲡⲉ|ⲑⲁⲃ] τῶν Φαρισαίων καὶ τῆς ζύμης [ⲙⲛ|ⲡⲉ|ⲑⲁⲃ] Ἡρῴδου He warned them, saying, 'Take heed: beware of the yeast [ⲉ|ⲡⲉ|ⲑⲁⲃ] of the Pharisees and the yeast [ⲙⲛ|ⲡⲉ|ⲑⲁⲃ] of Herod.'
Luke 12:1 Ἐν οἷς ἐπισυναχθεισῶν τῶν μυριάδων τοῦ ὄχλου ὥστε καταπατεῖν ἀλλήλους ἤρξατο λέγειν πρὸς τοὺς μαθητὰς αὐτοῦ πρῶτον Προσέχετε ἑαυτοῖς ἀπὸ τῆς ζύμης [ⲉⲧⲃⲉ|ⲡⲉ|ⲑⲁⲃ] τῶν Φαρισαίων ἥτις ἐστὶν ὑπόκρισις Meanwhile, when a multitude of many thousands had gathered together, so much so that they trampled on each other, he began to tell his disciples first of all, 'Beware of the yeast [ⲉⲧⲃⲉ|ⲡⲉ|ⲑⲁⲃ] of the Pharisees, which is hypocrisy.
Luke 13:21 ὁμοία ἐστὶν ζύμῃ [ⲉ|ⲩ|ⲑⲁⲃ] ἣν λαβοῦσα γυνὴ ἐνέκρυψεν εἰς ἀλεύρου σάτα τρία ἕως οὗ ἐζυμώθη [ϣⲁⲛⲧ|ϥ|ϫⲓⲑⲁⲃ] ὅλον It is like yeast [ⲉ|ⲩ|ⲑⲁⲃ], which a woman took and hid in three measures of flour, until it was all leavened [ϣⲁⲛⲧ|ϥ|ϫⲓⲑⲁⲃ].'
Luke 22:1 Ἤγγιζεν δὲ ἡ ἑορτὴ τῶν ἀζύμων [ⲛⲁ|ⲑⲁⲃ] ἡ λεγομένη πάσχα Now the feast of unleavened [ⲛⲁ|ⲑⲁⲃ] bread, which is called the Passover, drew near.
Luke 22:7 Ἦλθεν δὲ ἡ ἡμέρα τῶν ἀζύμων [ⲛⲁ|ⲑⲁⲃ] ἐν ᾗ ἔδει θύεσθαι τὸ πάσχα· The day of unleavened [ⲛⲁ|ⲑⲁⲃ] bread came, on which the Passover must be sacrificed.

Accordingly, we can now add three Sahidic Coptic synonyms to our small Greek glossary:

milk γάλα ⲉⲣⲱⲧⲉ
butter βούτυρον ⲥⲁⲓⲣⲉ
colostrum πῦαρ
leaven ζύμη ⲑⲁⲃ

Is it strange not to find a Sahidic Coptic word corresponding to the Latin colostrum or Greek πῦαρ? I don't think that it is. These are rare words, even in Latin and Greek, with highly specific meanings. It's common to find that such specific terms do not have a direct translation into other languages. And so we find no such direct translation into Sahidic Coptic.

In my reading of the texts, I have not found any contemporary support for Crum's definition of "first milk." The word milk (Greek γάλα) is consistently translated into ⲉⲣⲱⲧⲉ, which is the word we would expect to find if that were the meaning here. However, I have found abundant support for the meaning of the word as "butter" (Greek βούτυρον). And I have also been able to confirm your claim that it doesn't refer to yeast or leaven (Greek ζύμη), which is consistently translated by the Sahidic Coptic word ⲑⲁⲃ.

You have helpfully tracked down a singular witness in favor of Crum's first given definition:
mlinssen wrote: Wed Dec 07, 2022 12:17 pm The MS that Crum points to for that is

https://archive.org/details/miscellaneo ... 1/mode/2up

ⲥⲁⲓⲣⲉ is the word transcribed, I have to locate the MS in order to verify. One thing is for sure: there is no 'leaven' coming out of the breasts of the holy virgin

1 line above Folio 31 b 2, first word. The translation is on page 719

https://archive.org/details/miscellaneo ... 9/mode/2up

"My womb grew large without [the help of] a man, and my breasts became full of milk."
A likely explanation of the word for "butter" (ⲥⲁⲓⲣⲉ) here is that, in the absence of any specific term in Sahidic Coptic for the thicker colostrum that is associated with the first milk of a pregnant mother, the author has reached for the word for what could already be considered a form of thickened milk (butter) to express it, with some poetic license. This does not replace the primary meaning of the word but shows how it can be extended non-literally in one particular context by an individual author.

Therefore, I must make one small adjustment: The use of "butter" here is more consistent with your overall attempt to provide an interlinear transcription with primary meanings. It's an improvement over taking the first-listed definition in Crum's dictionary, which is not the primary meaning, as has already been shown through numerous examples.

[ⲡⲉϫⲉ] ⲓ̅ⲥ̅ ϫⲉ ⲧ ⲙⲛ̄ⲧ ⲉⲣⲟ ⲙ̄ ⲡ ⲉⲓⲱⲧ` ⲉ ⲥ ⲧⲛ̄ⲧⲱ[ⲛ ⲉ ⲩ] ⲥϩⲓⲙⲉ
ⲡⲉϫⲉ- ⲓⲥ ϫⲉ- ⲧ- ⲙⲛⲧ- ⲣⲣⲟ ⲛ- ⲡ- ⲉⲓⲱⲧ ⲉ- ⸗ⲥ ⲧⲟⲛⲧⲛ+ ⲉ- ⲟⲩ- ⲥϩⲓⲙⲉ
said IS : the(F) reign-of(F) king of the father she is-comparable to a woman

ⲁ ⲥ ϫⲓ ⲛ̄ ⲟⲩ ⲕⲟⲩⲉⲓ ⲛ̄ ⲥⲁⲉⲓⲣ [ⲁ ⲥ ϩⲟ]ⲡ ϥ` ϩⲛ̄ ⲟⲩ ϣⲱⲧⲉ
ⲁ- ⸗ⲥ ϫⲓ ⲛ- ⲟⲩ- ⲕⲟⲩⲓ ⲛ- ⲥⲓⲣ ⲁ- ⸗ⲥ ϩⲱⲡ ⲛⲧⲟϥ ϩⲛ- ⲟⲩ- ϣⲱⲧⲉ
did she take [dop] a little [al] butter did she hide him in a(n) dough

ⲁ ⲥ ⲁⲁ ϥ ⲛ̄ ϩⲛ̄ ⲛ[ⲟϭ ⲛ̄] ⲛ ⲟⲉⲓⲕ` ⲡⲉⲧ ⲉⲩⲙ̄ ⲙⲁⲁϫⲉ ⲙ̄ⲙⲟ ϥ ⲙⲁ[ⲣⲉ ϥ ⲥⲱ]ⲧⲙ̄
ⲁ- ⸗ⲥ ⲉⲓⲣⲉ ⲛⲧⲟϥ ⲛ- ϩⲟⲉⲓⲛⲉ ⲛⲟϭ ⲛ- ⲛ- ⲟⲉⲓⲕ ⲡⲉⲧ ⲟⲩⲛ- ⲙⲁⲁϫⲉ ⲙⲙⲟ⸗ ⲛⲧⲟϥ ⲙⲁⲣⲉ- ⲛⲧⲟϥ ⲥⲱⲧⲙ
did she make-be him of some(PL) great [al] loaf he-who there-be ear within he let! he hear

I'm not completely sure, since I've been working mostly with orthographically normalized texts, but it seems that ⲥⲁⲉⲓⲣ may be an alternate spelling of ⲥⲁⲓⲣ, which may also be alternate spellings of ⲥⲁⲉⲓⲣⲉ and ⲥⲁⲓⲣⲉ.

I will return later to attempt to investigate which form of the parable is earlier.
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mlinssen
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Re: The peculiar case of the parable of the butter

Post by mlinssen »

Peter Kirby wrote: Sun May 28, 2023 6:19 pm I'm going to do you a solid here and try to address both questions:

(1) What is the meaning of the word here?
(2) Which form of the parable is earlier?

The second question is obviously more difficult, but I will offer my speculations, as you have yours along with your arguments. And I hope that the detail-oriented approach that I take explains why this takes time.
mlinssen wrote: Mon Jul 19, 2021 2:49 pm Thomas logion 96:

[ⲡⲉϫⲉ] ⲓ̅ⲥ̅ ϫⲉ ⲧ ⲙⲛ̄ⲧ ⲉⲣⲟ ⲙ̄ ⲡ ⲉⲓⲱⲧ` ⲉ ⲥ ⲧⲛ̄ⲧⲱ[ⲛ ⲉ ⲩ] ⲥϩⲓⲙⲉ
ⲡⲉϫⲉ- ⲓⲥ ϫⲉ- ⲧ- ⲙⲛⲧ- ⲣⲣⲟ ⲛ- ⲡ- ⲉⲓⲱⲧ ⲉ- ⸗ⲥ ⲧⲟⲛⲧⲛ+ ⲉ- ⲟⲩ- ⲥϩⲓⲙⲉ
said IS : the(F) reign-of(F) king of the father she is-comparable to a woman

ⲁ ⲥ ϫⲓ ⲛ̄ ⲟⲩ ⲕⲟⲩⲉⲓ ⲛ̄ ⲥⲁⲉⲓⲣ [ⲁ ⲥ ϩⲟ]ⲡ ϥ` ϩⲛ̄ ⲟⲩ ϣⲱⲧⲉ
ⲁ- ⸗ⲥ ϫⲓ ⲛ- ⲟⲩ- ⲕⲟⲩⲓ ⲛ- ⲥⲓⲣ ⲁ- ⸗ⲥ ϩⲱⲡ ⲛⲧⲟϥ ϩⲛ- ⲟⲩ- ϣⲱⲧⲉ
did she take [dop] a little [al] first-milk did she hide him in a(n) dough

ⲁ ⲥ ⲁⲁ ϥ ⲛ̄ ϩⲛ̄ ⲛ[ⲟϭ ⲛ̄] ⲛ ⲟⲉⲓⲕ` ⲡⲉⲧ ⲉⲩⲙ̄ ⲙⲁⲁϫⲉ ⲙ̄ⲙⲟ ϥ ⲙⲁ[ⲣⲉ ϥ ⲥⲱ]ⲧⲙ̄
ⲁ- ⸗ⲥ ⲉⲓⲣⲉ ⲛⲧⲟϥ ⲛ- ϩⲟⲉⲓⲛⲉ ⲛⲟϭ ⲛ- ⲛ- ⲟⲉⲓⲕ ⲡⲉⲧ ⲟⲩⲛ- ⲙⲁⲁϫⲉ ⲙⲙⲟ⸗ ⲛⲧⲟϥ ⲙⲁⲣⲉ- ⲛⲧⲟϥ ⲥⲱⲧⲙ
did she make-be him of some(PL) great [al] loaf he-who there-be ear within he let! he hear

I decided to approach the question of the meaning of the Coptic here by looking not at dictionaries but at ancient uses of the word. My search turned up uses in the Sahidic Coptic translation of the Old Testament. To be able to understand these uses better, I decided to compare them to another translation where I already have more confidence in understanding the meanings of the words, specifically Greek.

It seems to me that we can easily build up a small glossary of relevant words in Greek.

milk γάλα
butter βούτυρον
colostrum πῦαρ
leaven ζύμη

I used the Annis Scriptorium website. The instances of the Sahidic Coptic word that I found were: Genesis 18:8, Deuteronomy 32:13, Judges 5:25, 1 Samuel 17:18, Job 20:17, Job 29:6, Isaiah 7:15, and Isaiah 7:22.

In each instance, I will provide the Septuagint text in Greek and Brenton's Septuagint translation in English, glossing the Sahidic Coptic word according to its corresponding appearance in the Sahidic Coptic text. For easier reading, I will split each Coptic word with the | symbol.

Genesis 18:8 ἔλαβεν δὲ βούτυρον [ⲛ|ⲟⲩ|ⲥⲁⲓⲣⲉ] καὶ γάλα [ⲙⲛ|ⲟⲩ|ⲉⲣⲱⲧⲉ] καὶ τὸ μοσχάριον ὃ ἐποίησεν καὶ παρέθηκεν αὐτοῖς καὶ ἐφάγοσαν αὐτὸς δὲ παρειστήκει αὐτοῖς ὑπὸ τὸ δένδρον And he took butter [ⲛ|ⲟⲩ|ⲥⲁⲓⲣⲉ] and milk [ⲙⲛ|ⲟⲩ|ⲉⲣⲱⲧⲉ], and the calf which he had dressed; and he set them before them, and they did eat, and he stood by them under the tree.
Deuteronomy 32:14 βούτυρον [ⲟⲩ|ⲥⲁⲓⲣⲉ] βοῶν καὶ γάλα [ⲙⲛ|ⲟⲩ|ⲉⲣⲱⲧⲉ] προβάτων μετὰ στέατος ἀρνῶν καὶ κριῶν υἱῶν ταύρων καὶ τράγων μετὰ στέατος νεφρῶν πυροῦ καὶ αἷμα σταφυλῆς ἔπιον οἶνον Butter [ⲟⲩ|ⲥⲁⲓⲣⲉ] of cows, and milk [ⲙⲛ|ⲟⲩ|ⲉⲣⲱⲧⲉ] of sheep, with the fat of lambs and rams, of calves and kids, with fat of kidneys of wheat; and he drank wine, the blood of the grape.
Judges 5:25 ὕδωρ ᾔτησεν αὐτήν καὶ γάλα [ⲁ|ⲥ|ϯⲉⲣⲱⲧⲉ] ἔδωκεν αὐτῷ ἐν λακάνῃ ἰσχυρῶν προσήγγισεν βούτυρον [ⲛ|ⲟⲩ|ⲥⲁⲓⲣⲉ He asked for water, she gave him milk [ⲁ|ⲥ|ϯⲉⲣⲱⲧⲉ] in a dish; she brought butter [ⲛ|ⲟⲩ|ⲥⲁⲓⲣⲉ] of princes.
1 Samuel 17:18 absent absent
Job 20:17 μὴ ἴδοι ἄμελξιν [ⲛ|ⲛⲉϥ|ⲟϩⲉ] νομάδων μηδὲ νομὰς μέλιτος καὶ βουτύρου [ⲙ|ⲡ|ⲥⲁⲓⲣⲉ] Let him not see the milk [milking -PK] [ⲛ|ⲛⲉϥ|ⲟϩⲉ] of the pastures, nor the supplies of honey and butter.
Job 29:6 ὅτε ἐχέοντό μου αἱ ὁδοὶ βουτύρῳ [ⲛ|ⲥⲁⲓⲣⲉ] τὰ δὲ ὄρη μου ἐχέοντο γάλακτι [ⲙ|ⲡ|ⲉⲣⲱⲧⲉ] when my ways were moistened with butter [ⲛ|ⲥⲁⲓⲣⲉ], and the mountains flowed for me with milk [ⲙ|ⲡ|ⲉⲣⲱⲧⲉ]
Isaiah 7:15 βούτυρον [ⲥⲁⲓⲣⲉ] καὶ μέλι φάγεται πρὶν ἢ γνῶναι αὐτὸν ἢ προελέσθαι πονηρὰ ἐκλέξεται τὸ ἀγαθόν Butter [ⲥⲁⲓⲣⲉ] and honey shall he eat, before he knows either to prefer evil, or choose the good.
Isaiah 7:22 καὶ ἔσται ἀπὸ τοῦ πλεῖστον ποιεῖν γάλα [ⲉⲣⲱⲧⲉ] βούτυρον [ⲥⲁⲓⲣⲉ] καὶ μέλι φάγεται πᾶς ὁ καταλειφθεὶς ἐπὶ τῆς γῆς And it shall come to pass from their drinking an abundance of milk [ⲉⲣⲱⲧⲉ], that every one that is left on the land shall eat butter [ⲥⲁⲓⲣⲉ] and honey.

From these examples, we can create a table of positive correlations (nearly complete for ⲥⲁⲓⲣⲉ, incomplete for ⲉⲣⲱⲧⲉ and ⲟϩⲉ, which have additional examples):

ⲥⲁⲓⲣⲉ βούτυρον (100%) butter (100%)
ⲉⲣⲱⲧⲉ γάλα (100%) milk (100%)
ⲟϩⲉ ἄμελξιν (once) milking (once)

A search for milk turns up ⲉⲣⲱⲧⲉ (as expected) and words derived from it, ⲥⲁⲓⲣ (Crum's "first milk"/"butter"), and ϩⲱⲣ ("squeeze out," i.e. to milk). I encountered all of these Sahidic Coptic words when searching for ⲥⲁⲓⲣⲉ. And so far I consistently found them used such that ⲉⲣⲱⲧⲉ meant milk (γάλα), ⲥⲁⲓⲣⲉ meant butter (βούτυρον), and ⲟϩⲉ meant milking (ἄμελξιν).

Now for a change of subject, to "leaven," which we have not yet found. There are three lemmas that show up when I search for leaven: ⲑⲁⲃ, ⲕⲱⲃ, and ⲥⲉⲣ. There are no examples of root word ⲥⲉⲣ used as leaven in my search. The only examples of ⲕⲱⲃ that I find are in Pistis Sophia, the instructions of Pachomius, and the life of John Kalybites. So in no case does either of the other two Sahidic Coptic words get used as a translation for the word "leaven" in the New Testament. That leaves ⲑⲁⲃ.

There are very many other examples of ⲉⲣⲱⲧⲉ and many examples for ⲑⲁⲃ, so I will present a sample, focusing on the New Testament in Sahidic Coptic. Here are all examples of ⲉⲣⲱⲧⲉ in the New Testament.

1 Corinthians 3:2 γάλα [ⲉⲣⲱⲧⲉ] ὑμᾶς ἐπότισα καὶ οὐ βρῶμα οὔπω γὰρ ἠδύνασθε ἀλλ᾽ οὖτε ἔτι νῦν δύνασθε I fed you with milk [ⲉⲣⲱⲧⲉ], not with meat; for you weren't yet ready. Indeed, not even now are you ready
1 Corinthians 9:7 τίς στρατεύεται ἰδίοις ὀψωνίοις ποτέ τίς φυτεύει ἀμπελῶνα καὶ ἐκ τοῦ καρποῦ αὐτοῦ οὐκ ἐσθίει ἢ τίς ποιμαίνει ποίμνην καὶ ἐκ τοῦ γάλακτος [ⲙ|ⲡⲉϥ|ⲉⲣⲱⲧⲉ] τῆς ποίμνης οὐκ ἐσθίει What soldier ever serves at his own expense? Who plants a vineyard, and doesn't eat of its fruit? Or who feeds a flock, and doesn't drink from the flock's milk? [ⲙ|ⲡⲉϥ|ⲉⲣⲱⲧⲉ]
Hebrews 5:12 καὶ γὰρ ὀφείλοντες εἶναι διδάσκαλοι διὰ τὸν χρόνον πάλιν χρείαν ἔχετε τοῦ διδάσκειν ὑμᾶς τινὰ τὰ στοιχεῖα τῆς ἀρχῆς τῶν λογίων τοῦ θεοῦ καὶ γεγόνατε χρείαν ἔχοντες γάλακτος [ⲛ|ⲟⲩ|ⲉⲣⲱⲧⲉ] καὶ οὐ στερεᾶς τροφῆς For when by reason of the time you ought to be teachers, you again need to have someone teach you the rudiments of the first principles of the oracles of God. You have come to need milk [ⲛ|ⲟⲩ|ⲉⲣⲱⲧⲉ], and not solid food.
Hebrews 5:13 πᾶς γὰρ ὁ μετέχων γάλακτος [ϩⲙ|ⲡ|ⲉⲣⲱⲧⲉ] ἄπειρος λόγου δικαιοσύνης νήπιος γάρ ἐστιν For everyone who lives on milk [ϩⲙ|ⲡ|ⲉⲣⲱⲧⲉ] is not experienced in the word of righteousness, for he is a baby.
1 Peter 2:2 ὡς ἀρτιγέννητα βρέφη τὸ λογικὸν ἄδολον γάλα [ⲡ|ⲉⲣⲱⲧⲉ] ἐπιποθήσατε ἵνα ἐν αὐτῷ αὐξηθῆτε as newborn babies, long for the pure milk [ⲡ|ⲉⲣⲱⲧⲉ] of the Word, that you may grow thereby,

Now ⲑⲁⲃ, this time presenting all examples in the New Testament gospels.

Matthew 13:33 Ἄλλην παραβολὴν ἐλάλησεν αὐτοῖς· Ὁμοία ἐστὶν ἡ βασιλεία τῶν οὐρανῶν ζύμῃ [ⲉ|ⲩ|ⲑⲁⲃ] ἣν λαβοῦσα γυνὴ ἐνέκρυψεν εἰς ἀλεύρου σάτα τρία ἕως οὗ ἐζυμώθη [ϣⲁⲛⲧⲉ|ϥ|ϫⲓⲑⲁⲃ] ὅλον He spoke another parable to them. 'The Kingdom of Heaven is like yeast [ⲉ|ⲩ|ⲑⲁⲃ], which a woman took, and hid in three measures of meal, until it was all leavened [ϣⲁⲛⲧⲉ|ϥ|ϫⲓⲑⲁⲃ].'
Matthew 16:6 ὁ δὲ Ἰησοῦς εἶπεν αὐτοῖς Ὁρᾶτε καὶ προσέχετε ἀπὸ τῆς ζύμης [ϩⲙ|ⲡⲉ|ⲑⲁⲃ] τῶν Φαρισαίων καὶ Σαδδουκαίων Jesus said to them, 'Take heed and beware of the yeast [ϩⲙ|ⲡⲉ|ⲑⲁⲃ] of the Pharisees and Sadducees.'
Matthew 16:11 πῶς οὐ νοεῖτε ὅτι οὐ περὶ ἄρτοῦ εἶπον ὑμῖν προσέχειν ἀπὸ τῆς ζύμης [ϩⲙ|ⲡⲉ|ⲑⲁⲃ] τῶν Φαρισαίων καὶ Σαδδουκαίων How is it that you don't perceive that I didn't speak to you concerning bread? But beware of the yeast [ϩⲙ|ⲡⲉ|ⲑⲁⲃ] of the Pharisees and Sadducees.'
Matthew 16:12 τότε συνῆκαν ὅτι οὐκ εἶπεν προσέχειν ἀπὸ τῆς ζύμης [ⲉⲧⲃⲉ|ⲡⲉ|ⲑⲁⲃ] τοῦ ἄρτου, ἀλλ᾽ ἀπὸ τῆς διδαχῆς τῶν Φαρισαίων καὶ Σαδδουκαίων Then they understood that he didn't tell them to beware of the yeast [ⲉⲧⲃⲉ|ⲡⲉ|ⲑⲁⲃ] of bread, but of the teaching of the Pharisees and Sadducees.
Mark 8:15 αὶ διεστέλλετο αὐτοῖς λέγων, Ὁρᾶτε βλέπετε ἀπὸ τῆς ζύμης [ⲉ|ⲡⲉ|ⲑⲁⲃ] τῶν Φαρισαίων καὶ τῆς ζύμης [ⲙⲛ|ⲡⲉ|ⲑⲁⲃ] Ἡρῴδου He warned them, saying, 'Take heed: beware of the yeast [ⲉ|ⲡⲉ|ⲑⲁⲃ] of the Pharisees and the yeast [ⲙⲛ|ⲡⲉ|ⲑⲁⲃ] of Herod.'
Luke 12:1 Ἐν οἷς ἐπισυναχθεισῶν τῶν μυριάδων τοῦ ὄχλου ὥστε καταπατεῖν ἀλλήλους ἤρξατο λέγειν πρὸς τοὺς μαθητὰς αὐτοῦ πρῶτον Προσέχετε ἑαυτοῖς ἀπὸ τῆς ζύμης [ⲉⲧⲃⲉ|ⲡⲉ|ⲑⲁⲃ] τῶν Φαρισαίων ἥτις ἐστὶν ὑπόκρισις Meanwhile, when a multitude of many thousands had gathered together, so much so that they trampled on each other, he began to tell his disciples first of all, 'Beware of the yeast [ⲉⲧⲃⲉ|ⲡⲉ|ⲑⲁⲃ] of the Pharisees, which is hypocrisy.
Luke 13:21 ὁμοία ἐστὶν ζύμῃ [ⲉ|ⲩ|ⲑⲁⲃ] ἣν λαβοῦσα γυνὴ ἐνέκρυψεν εἰς ἀλεύρου σάτα τρία ἕως οὗ ἐζυμώθη [ϣⲁⲛⲧ|ϥ|ϫⲓⲑⲁⲃ] ὅλον It is like yeast [ⲉ|ⲩ|ⲑⲁⲃ], which a woman took and hid in three measures of flour, until it was all leavened [ϣⲁⲛⲧ|ϥ|ϫⲓⲑⲁⲃ].'
Luke 22:1 Ἤγγιζεν δὲ ἡ ἑορτὴ τῶν ἀζύμων [ⲛⲁ|ⲑⲁⲃ] ἡ λεγομένη πάσχα Now the feast of unleavened [ⲛⲁ|ⲑⲁⲃ] bread, which is called the Passover, drew near.
Luke 22:7 Ἦλθεν δὲ ἡ ἡμέρα τῶν ἀζύμων [ⲛⲁ|ⲑⲁⲃ] ἐν ᾗ ἔδει θύεσθαι τὸ πάσχα· The day of unleavened [ⲛⲁ|ⲑⲁⲃ] bread came, on which the Passover must be sacrificed.

Accordingly, we can now add three Sahidic Coptic synonyms to our small Greek glossary:

milk γάλα ⲉⲣⲱⲧⲉ
butter βούτυρον ⲥⲁⲓⲣⲉ
colostrum πῦαρ
leaven ζύμη ⲑⲁⲃ

Is it strange not to find a Sahidic Coptic word corresponding to the Latin colostrum or Greek πῦαρ? I don't think that it is. These are rare words, even in Latin and Greek, with highly specific meanings. It's common to find that such specific terms do not have a direct translation into other languages. And so we find no such direct translation into Sahidic Coptic.

In my reading of the texts, I have not found any contemporary support for Crum's definition of "first milk." The word milk (Greek γάλα) is consistently translated into ⲉⲣⲱⲧⲉ, which is the word we would expect to find if that were the meaning here. However, I have found abundant support for the meaning of the word as "butter" (Greek βούτυρον). And I have also been able to confirm your claim that it doesn't refer to yeast or leaven (Greek ζύμη), which is consistently translated by the Sahidic Coptic word ⲑⲁⲃ.

You have helpfully tracked down a singular witness in favor of Crum's first given definition:
mlinssen wrote: Wed Dec 07, 2022 12:17 pm The MS that Crum points to for that is

https://archive.org/details/miscellaneo ... 1/mode/2up

ⲥⲁⲓⲣⲉ is the word transcribed, I have to locate the MS in order to verify. One thing is for sure: there is no 'leaven' coming out of the breasts of the holy virgin

1 line above Folio 31 b 2, first word. The translation is on page 719

https://archive.org/details/miscellaneo ... 9/mode/2up

"My womb grew large without [the help of] a man, and my breasts became full of milk."
A likely explanation of the word for "butter" (ⲥⲁⲓⲣⲉ) here is that, in the absence of any specific term in Sahidic Coptic for the thicker colostrum that is associated with the first milk of a pregnant mother, the author has reached for the word for what could already be considered a form of thickened milk (butter) to express it, with some poetic license. This does not replace the primary meaning of the word but shows how it can be extended non-literally in one particular context by an individual author.

Therefore, I must make one small adjustment: The use of "butter" here is more consistent with your overall attempt to provide an interlinear transcription with primary meanings. It's an improvement over taking the first-listed definition in Crum's dictionary, which is not the primary meaning, as has already been shown through numerous examples.

[ⲡⲉϫⲉ] ⲓ̅ⲥ̅ ϫⲉ ⲧ ⲙⲛ̄ⲧ ⲉⲣⲟ ⲙ̄ ⲡ ⲉⲓⲱⲧ` ⲉ ⲥ ⲧⲛ̄ⲧⲱ[ⲛ ⲉ ⲩ] ⲥϩⲓⲙⲉ
ⲡⲉϫⲉ- ⲓⲥ ϫⲉ- ⲧ- ⲙⲛⲧ- ⲣⲣⲟ ⲛ- ⲡ- ⲉⲓⲱⲧ ⲉ- ⸗ⲥ ⲧⲟⲛⲧⲛ+ ⲉ- ⲟⲩ- ⲥϩⲓⲙⲉ
said IS : the(F) reign-of(F) king of the father she is-comparable to a woman

ⲁ ⲥ ϫⲓ ⲛ̄ ⲟⲩ ⲕⲟⲩⲉⲓ ⲛ̄ ⲥⲁⲉⲓⲣ [ⲁ ⲥ ϩⲟ]ⲡ ϥ` ϩⲛ̄ ⲟⲩ ϣⲱⲧⲉ
ⲁ- ⸗ⲥ ϫⲓ ⲛ- ⲟⲩ- ⲕⲟⲩⲓ ⲛ- ⲥⲓⲣ ⲁ- ⸗ⲥ ϩⲱⲡ ⲛⲧⲟϥ ϩⲛ- ⲟⲩ- ϣⲱⲧⲉ
did she take [dop] a little [al] butter did she hide him in a(n) dough

ⲁ ⲥ ⲁⲁ ϥ ⲛ̄ ϩⲛ̄ ⲛ[ⲟϭ ⲛ̄] ⲛ ⲟⲉⲓⲕ` ⲡⲉⲧ ⲉⲩⲙ̄ ⲙⲁⲁϫⲉ ⲙ̄ⲙⲟ ϥ ⲙⲁ[ⲣⲉ ϥ ⲥⲱ]ⲧⲙ̄
ⲁ- ⸗ⲥ ⲉⲓⲣⲉ ⲛⲧⲟϥ ⲛ- ϩⲟⲉⲓⲛⲉ ⲛⲟϭ ⲛ- ⲛ- ⲟⲉⲓⲕ ⲡⲉⲧ ⲟⲩⲛ- ⲙⲁⲁϫⲉ ⲙⲙⲟ⸗ ⲛⲧⲟϥ ⲙⲁⲣⲉ- ⲛⲧⲟϥ ⲥⲱⲧⲙ
did she make-be him of some(PL) great [al] loaf he-who there-be ear within he let! he hear

I'm not completely sure, since I've been working mostly with orthographically normalized texts, but it seems that ⲥⲁⲉⲓⲣ may be an alternate spelling of ⲥⲁⲓⲣ, which may also be alternate spellings of ⲥⲁⲉⲓⲣⲉ and ⲥⲁⲓⲣⲉ.

I will return later to attempt to investigate which form of the parable is earlier.
Thank you for this grand effort Peter!
Yep, that sums most of it up - although a crucial one is missing:

https://data.copticscriptorium.org/text ... 7/analytic is present in Coptic, and not only that: it contains the exact same expression as Thomas:
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Also see 17:17 where the loaves are named, and then suddenly in 17:18 those get translated with "cheeses" whereas in Coptic the words remain the same: ⲟⲉⲓⲕ. Yet butter here gets translated as milk while I would translate this as "10 loaves of butter". Unfortunately the LXX misses a few dozen verses around these chapters. Chabad:

18And you shall bring these ten cheeses to the captain of the thousand, and you shall see how your brothers are faring, and you shall take the tidings of their welfare."

Cheese it is then, 10 "wheels" of them, likely - and what we have here is an advanced stage of milk for either of these, butter as well as cheese

2 Samuel 17:29 has a dialect variant ⲥⲟⲉⲓⲣⲉ: https://data.copticscriptorium.org/text ... 7/analytic

But the real deal is in Proverbs 24:68, as they is the exact same word: ⲥⲁⲉⲓⲣⲉ

https://data.copticscriptorium.org/text ... 4/analytic - do observe that the tagging is automatic and fails here (gold is the utmost) and note that 68 is squeezed in between 67 and 69.
In our numbering, this is Proverbs 30:33

For as the churning of milk yields butter, and the twisting of the nose draws blood, so the stirring of anger brings forth strife.”

ⲑⲁⲃ is the default and regular word for leaven, used throughout any and all texts really. Rare exceptions for the Hebrew loanword being used, and there indeed are no occasions where I've encountered ⲥⲓⲣ for leaven - while having gone by all references in Crum and all other dictionaries, of course

There's one error in your thinking: while you base your final choice of word on the widest attestation, the fact of the matter is that the overwhelming majority of Coptic texts is either religious or magical, and there are few opportunities where we'd encounter a colostrum - save for the one text about the virgin Mary with lactating breasts, which basically says as little as "my breasts / nipples make milk", and with the above "advanced milk" in mind this likely got translated to colostrum for that very reason, as otherwise the default for milk would have been used.
There must be a reason why Crum makes this the primary word, even though I'd agree with what you sketch, namely that this "thicker / advanced stage milk" forms the basis for the word

With regards to the variants: the forms ⲥⲁⲓⲣ and ⲥⲁⲉⲓⲣ are just meaningless orthographic variants of each other.
ⲑⲁⲃ is Sahidic and ⲕⲱⲃ is Bohairic, thus pertaining to specific dialects

Thank you very much Peter. What an interesting journey to make, isn't it?
I'm just throwing in Guillaumont et al as an example, to show that nothing gets emended here:
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Layton as well then, in order to finish that possible debate:
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mlinssen
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Re: The peculiar case of the parable of the colostrum (aka 'leaven')

Post by mlinssen »

mlinssen wrote: Tue Mar 07, 2023 1:36 am
Well, the entire question of course is: why do Guillaumont, Layton, Lambdin, even Doresse, yet also a Gathercole, DeConick, Plisch, Quispel, and even a Schenke and Till falsify this logion?
Why don't they simply translate what it says, OR emend it and then translate what that says?
I've attached the pages by Guillaumont and Layton in the previous post: all kinds of finical and trivial matters get emended, but not this word: it just gets completely mistranslate without any comment.
And the principal secondary question is: WHY?

One either emends and then applies the emendation in the translation, or one does not emend and then applies the text in the translation - anything else is falsification
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Ken Olson
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Re: The peculiar case of the parable of the butter

Post by Ken Olson »

Peter Kirby wrote: Sun May 28, 2023 6:19 pm I will return later to attempt to investigate which form of the parable is earlier.
I look forward to it.

Best,

Ken
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