neilgodfrey wrote: ↑Tue Jul 20, 2021 11:49 amDubourg works with that view that Jews were preoccupied with wanting to know when the messiah would come etc etc--
are you sure about this point on Dubourg's view? He says that the Christians wanted to invent a new Torah, differently from Sadducees (according to which the existing Torah was sufficient) and differently from Pharisees (according to which the Torah could be expanded by commentaries etc, only not by fulfilling it midrashically in the "real" History).
No trace of messianism as usually meant.
It is evident that Dubourg wants to justify the Christian anti-Phariseism as a Jewish internal conflict, and not as a conflict Gentilizers versus Judaizers.
About the Christians prophetizing the destruction of the Temple before the 70 CE, Stahl argued the same thing by applying the criterion of embarrassment to Mark 14:57-58:
Then some stood up and gave this false testimony against him: “We heard him say, ‘I will destroy this temple made with human hands and in three days will build another, not made with hands.’”
neilgodfrey wrote: ↑Tue Jul 20, 2021 11:49 amDubourg works with that view that Jews were preoccupied with wanting to know when the messiah would come etc etc--
are you sure about this point on Dubourg's view? He says that the Christians wanted to invent a new Torah, differently from Sadducees (according to which the existing Torah was sufficient) and differently from Pharisees (according to which the Torah could be expanded by commentaries etc, only not by fulfilling it midrashically in the "real" History).
No trace of messianism as usually meant.
It is evident that Dubourg wants to justify the Christian anti-Phariseism as a Jewish internal conflict, and not as a conflict Gentilizers versus Judaizers.
About the Christians prophetizing the destruction of the Temple before the 70 CE, Stahl argued the same thing by applying the criterion of embarrassment to Mark 14:57-58:
Then some stood up and gave this false testimony against him: “We heard him say, ‘I will destroy this temple made with human hands and in three days will build another, not made with hands.’”
Perhaps I should not have said "popular" messianism, but D does situate "Christian" exegetes alongside other Jewish readers of the Scriptures and points out that the idea of a messiah to come is central to those (p. 107 of vol 2 is one reference, I think). The gospel messiah trumped the other supposed messianic claimants of the time, D says, by making him a resurrected god. Then the "fortuituous" event of the destruction of the temple "proved" their prophetic (and anti-temple) expectations, yes?
