The peculiar case of the lamp under a bushel

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gryan
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Re: The peculiar case of the lamp under a bushel

Post by gryan »

So you are arguing that Thomas (in Coptic)--Tr:"not-usually he place he in place he be-hiding"-- agrees with hypothetical Marcion (mirrored in Tertullian's Latin)--Tr: "not-usually he place he in place he be-hiding"--against the Greek texts of the NT Synoptics--exemplified by Luke 11:33, Tr: Οὐδεὶς (But no one) λύχνον (a lamp) ἅψας (having lit), εἰς (in) κρύπτην (secret) τίθησιν (sets it), οὐδὲ (nor) ὑπὸ (under) τὸν (the) μόδιον (basket), ἀλλ’ (but) ἐπὶ (upon) τὴν (the) λυχνίαν (lampstand), ἵνα (that) οἱ (those) εἰσπορευόμενοι (entering in) τὸ (the) φέγγος (light) βλέπωσιν (may see).

Correct?
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mlinssen
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Re: The peculiar case of the lamp under a bushel

Post by mlinssen »

gryan wrote: Sat Aug 07, 2021 11:12 am So you are arguing that Thomas (in Coptic)--Tr:"not-usually he place he in place he be-hiding"-- agrees with hypothetical Marcion (mirrored in Tertullian's Latin)--Tr: "not-usually he place he in place he be-hiding"--against the Greek texts of the NT Synoptics--exemplified by Luke 11:33, Tr: Οὐδεὶς (But no one) λύχνον (a lamp) ἅψας (having lit), εἰς (in) κρύπτην (secret) τίθησιν (sets it), οὐδὲ (nor) ὑπὸ (under) τὸν (the) μόδιον (basket), ἀλλ’ (but) ἐπὶ (upon) τὴν (the) λυχνίαν (lampstand), ἵνα (that) οἱ (those) εἰσπορευόμενοι (entering in) τὸ (the) φέγγος (light) βλέπωσιν (may see).

Correct?
Exactly - but the emphasis in this particular case is in the word "solere" which expresses the same habituality as Thomas does

But Tertullian would appear to be reading Luke 11:33 here and not 8:16, as is attested to by him talking about the hiding place (krypton certainly doesn't mean secret, the Berean is wrong here) which is not present there.
The parable of the sower (that remarkably is unattested by Tertullian) and its "explanation" precedes Luke 8:16, and what Tertullian talks about before this lamp in a hidden place is the very start of chapter XIX:

The fact that certain rich women clave to Christ, “which ministered unto Him of their substance,” amongst whom was the wife of the king’s steward, is a subject of prophecy. By Isaiah the Lord called these wealthy ladies—“Rise up, ye women that are at ease, and hear my voice”4184—that He might prove4185them first as disciples, and then as assistants and helpers: “Daughters, hear my words in hope; this day of the year cherish the memory of, in labour with hope.” For it was “in labour” that they followed Him, and “with hope” did they minister to Him.

That matches with Luke 8:1ff indeed, so it would definitely appear as if Tertullian is reading Luke 8. Not only that, he follows up with

But there is that direct mode of His speaking4187 to the 377 people—“Ye shall hear with the ear, but ye shall not understand”4188—which now claims notice as having furnished to Christ that frequent form of His earnest instruction: “He that hath ears to hear, let him hear.”4189Not as if Christ, actuated with a diverse spirit, permitted a hearing which the Creator had refused; but because the exhortation followed the threatening. First came, “Ye shall hear with the ear, but shall not understand;” then followed, “He that hath ears to hear, let him hear.”

and that matches perfectly with

Luke 8:8 (...) Ταῦτα (These things) λέγων (saying), ἐφώνει (He was calling out), “Ὁ (The one) ἔχων (having) ὦτα (ears) ἀκούειν (to hear), ἀκουέτω (let him hear).”

and

Luke 8:10 (...) ‘Βλέποντες (Seeing), μὴ (not) βλέπωσιν (may they see); Καὶ (and) ἀκούοντες (hearing), μὴ (not) συνιῶσιν (may they understand).’b

So we're definitely in chapter Luke 8, aren't we?
Yet right before the first Tertullian quote in my post that you cite, he has

This is proved even by the sentence which immediately follows: “Whosoever hath, to him shall be given; and whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken even that which he seemeth to have.”4193 What shall be given? The increase of faith, or understanding, or even salvation. What shall be taken away? That, of course, which shall be given. By whom shall the gift and the deprivation be made? If by the Creator it be taken away, by Him also shall it be given.

and that is Luke 8:18, which comes after Luke 8:16 - but perhaps Tertullian has a special text where the order of these two was swapped? LOL
We're definitely in chapter Luke 8 though, aren't we?
We must be, because right after the lamp Tertullian comes up with Jesus’ mother

We now come to the most strenuously-plied argument of all those who call in question the Lord’s nativity. They say that He testifies Himself to His not having been born, when He asks, “Who is my mother, and who are my brethren?”4196 In this manner heretics either wrest plain and simple words to any sense they choose by their conjectures, or else they violently resolve by a literal interpretation words which imply a conditional sense and are incapable of a simple solution,4197 as in this passage.

and that is Luke 8:19 - and Calming the Storm is next.
So there can be absolutely no mistake about it, save for the reverse order of the lamp and the giving-taking.
Yet where does Tertullian read the hiding place?

I am, moreover, astonished when he says that “a candle is not usually hidden,”4194


Luke 8:16 Οὐδεὶς (No one) δὲ (now) λύχνον (a lamp) ἅψας (having lighted), καλύπτει (covers) αὐτὸν (it) σκεύει (with a vessel), ἢ (or) ὑποκάτω (under) κλίνης (a bed)

It's debatable whether Tertullian paraphrases the verse here, even though putting something under a bed doesn't really equate to hiding it. But "not usually"? That's neither in this verse, nor in the other Lukan version - so he must definitely be reading Marcion here, who apparently had an even more verbatim copy of Thomas - of the Coptic, unless that copy was a Greek creation by someone else that was an equally more verbatim copy of the Coptic

Here, from my concordance:

not-usually ⲙⲁⲣⲉ- Verbal prefix Aorist negative 19, 31, 33, 45, 47, 76, 84

It is quite a thing in Thomas, it is used 16 times.
I have checked the remainder of Tertullian for the word, and alas - just got lucky on this occasion. Still, I am really happy
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