Heretic

Discussion about the New Testament, apocrypha, gnostics, church fathers, Christian origins, historical Jesus or otherwise, etc.
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maryhelena
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Heretic

Post by maryhelena »

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https://www.amazon.co.uk/Heretic-Savior ... 368&sr=8-1


Amazon

From a celebrated classicist and author of The Darkening Age ("[a] ballista-bolt of a book"--New York Times Book Review), a group biography of the many, diverse Jesuses who thrived in early Christian traditions--and how they were killed off until just one, "true" Christ survived.

Contrary to the teachings of the church today, in the first several centuries of Christianity's existence, there was no consensus as to who Jesus was or why he had mattered. Instead, there were many different Christs. One had a twin brother and travelled to India; another consorted with dragons. One particularly terrifying Christ scorned his parents and killed those who opposed him. Why do we know so little about these early versions of Jesus? Because, starting in the fourth century AD, the orthodox form of Christianity that had become pre-eminent set about systematically wiping out every other variation, denouncing their gospels as apocryphal and their followers as heretics. These unfortunate Christians lost their rights, their property, their churches--in some cases, even their lives.

Heretic unearths the different versions of Christ who existed in the minds of early Christians, and the process of evolution--and elimination--by which Jesus became the singular figure we know today.

Catherine Nixey's earlier book - The Darkening Age: The Christian Destruction of the Classical World - met with some criticism. It will be interesting to see how this one is received - title to be released next April.

(Catherine Nixey's father was a Benedictine monk for 12 years and her mother was a Servite nun. )
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maryhelena
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Re: Heretic

Post by maryhelena »

The title of Catherine Nixey's upcoming book - Heretic - brought to mind these quote from the late Catholic theologian Hans Kung.

Hans Kung: The Church

Why do people become heretics - what answer would heretics themselves give?...........Leaving aside all detailed and technical points and any psychological motivations, they would surely reply that they wanted the best for the Church, that they acted in good faith".

.......The question of the relationship between the Church and heretics is one that remains with us, because heretics have continued and will continue, because every Christian is potentially not only a heretic, but also an inquisitor. As Paul knew, heresies were born with the Church, and the whole life and teaching of the Church are influenced by the question of how the Church should confront heresy.

-----------Much more startling than the fact that the young Church was regarded as a 'heresy' is the fact that from the very beginning there were heresies within the Church. This shows that heresy is not a chance historical phenomenon, but something that is bound up with the nature of the Church .

-------------The spectacle of burning human torches and countless broken human lives can teach the Church humility and self-awareness. ..... a turning away not just from the burning of heretics , but from the hatred of heretics, the despising and disregarding of heretics: it is not just the terrible punishments of the Inquisition but the spirit of the Inquisition which made such terrible cruelty possible in the first place, which the Church must set aside.

Substitute 'society' in place of 'church' and Kung's and words are as relevant for today's social/political environment as they still are for the catholic church.

Heresy is alive and well in Jesus studies. Maybe Catherine Nixey's upcoming new book will widen the debate over Jesus still further.
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Irish1975
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Re: Heretic

Post by Irish1975 »

There were no "heretics" before the emperors imposed laws of religion on the general population. The abuse of the term hairesis in theological polemic prior to 380 CE is not evidence of a social reality.

The young Augustine was no heretic during the seven years that he studied with the Manichaeans. That was before the promulgation of Cunctos Populos. That young man only became a heretic retrospectively, in the mind of the wretched old autobiographer.

The very idea of heresy is parasitic on the concept of orthodox subjects of emperors and bishops (who are orthodox by definition).
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maryhelena
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Re: Heretic

Post by maryhelena »

Irish1975 wrote: Sun Jul 25, 2021 8:03 am There were no "heretics" before the emperors imposed laws of religion on the general population. The abuse of the term hairesis in theological polemic prior to 380 CE is not evidence of a social reality.

The young Augustine was no heretic during the seven years that he studied with the Manichaeans. That was before the promulgation of Cunctos Populos. That young man only became a heretic retrospectively, in the mind of the wretched old autobiographer.

The very idea of heresy is parasitic on the concept of orthodox subjects of emperors and bishops (who are orthodox by definition).
I like that.... ''.. heresy is parasitic on the concept of orthodox subjects of emperors and bishops. ''. 👍
StephenGoranson
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Re: Heretic

Post by StephenGoranson »

I suggested that
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Birkat_haMinim
would be relevant to the history of the concept of heresy.
But I suggested that on the "Rabbi Wise and Antigonus II Mattathias" thread and was informed that it belongs on a heresy thread.
So here it is.
I suggest that it is relevant to the origin and interplay of the concepts of heresy and minut.
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maryhelena
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Re: Heretic

Post by maryhelena »

StephenGoranson wrote: Mon Jul 26, 2021 7:05 am I suggested that
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Birkat_haMinim
would be relevant to the history of the concept of heresy.
But I suggested that on the "Rabbi Wise and Antigonus II Mattathias" thread and was informed that it belongs on a heresy thread.
So here it is.
I suggest that it is relevant to the origin and interplay of the concepts of heresy and minut.
Stephan the suggestion was that you start your own thread not to attempt to highjack one of my threads...

:banghead:
StephenGoranson
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Re: Heretic

Post by StephenGoranson »

Heresy and heretic are one subject.
Claimed commitment to rational inquiry evaporated within a few minutes.
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maryhelena
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Re: Heretic

Post by maryhelena »

StephenGoranson wrote: Mon Jul 26, 2021 7:25 am Heresy and heretic are one subject.
Claimed commitment to rational inquiry evaporated within a few minutes.
:banghead:

Stephen, I choose where to spent my time and what I discuss or debate. I won't be badgered by your continual attempts to coerce me to dance to your tune.....

Yes, I appreciate you've drunk the historical Jesus cool-aid and are frustrated that other's find that drink to be detrimental to their rationality. However, heresy hunting has never been a good look for historical Jesus followers.....
StephenGoranson
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Re: Heretic

Post by StephenGoranson »

Discussions of Birkat haMinim focus on development of Hebrew usage.
In Hebrew, minim took on an additional, negative sense. It had been neutral, as in kinds of trees in Genesis. But, later, it sometimes meant disapproved kinds.
Somewhat similarly, in Greek, hairesis, which is Josephus usually just meant a school of thought or the like, neutrally, may have, already in Philo, started to take on a sometimes disapproved sense. As David T. Runia, “Philo of Alexandria and the Greek Hairesis-Model,” Vigiliae Christianae 53.2 (1999), 117-147 discussed.
StephenGoranson
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Re: Heretic

Post by StephenGoranson »

To be clear, I do not recall referring to mary nor to anyone else here as a heretic.
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