Where do I find in the Tosefta Chullin a story of Jacob the Christian heretic?

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neilgodfrey
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Where do I find in the Tosefta Chullin a story of Jacob the Christian heretic?

Post by neilgodfrey »

The Wikipedia entry for Jacob the heretic references Tosefta Chullin 2:22-23 for a story of Jacob the heretic coming to heal a snakebite in the name of Jesus or Yeshu ben Pandera; and this story is followed by another anecdote involving the same Jacob of the Jesus heresy.

Another sources give the same reference.

So I turn to https://www.sefaria.org/Chullin and cannot see chapter and verse setup that leads me to 2:22-23 where I am unable to find anything that references Jacob or Yakub or Jesus or Yeshu -- anywhere from 1 to 12.

Is there a different numbering system somewhere? Am I in the wrong place entirely? Or is sefaria's online William Davidson edition truncated somehow? Or is there another site that provides the passage or link to it?

I can find translations of the passage in other sources but they don't give me the borader context. I would like to find a translation online of the entire Chullin/Hullin 2 if possible.

Any guidance would be very much appreciated.
StephenGoranson
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Re: Where do I find in the Tosefta Chullin a story of Jacob the Christian heretic?

Post by StephenGoranson »

Your link is to Babylonian Talmud. Tosefta is a different collection.
https://www.sefaria.org/Tosefta_Chullin.2?lang=bi
Jacob Neusner has a translation of Tosefta
Paul the Uncertain
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Re: Where do I find in the Tosefta Chullin a story of Jacob the Christian heretic?

Post by Paul the Uncertain »

This may be the story you're looking for:

https://www.sefaria.org/Avodah_Zarah.27b?lang=bi

About half a dozen blocks in:
The baraita relates an incident illustrating this point. There was an incident involving ben Dama, son of Rabbi Yishmael’s sister, in which a snake bit him. And following the attack, Ya’akov of the village of Sekhanya, who was a heretic, a disciple of Jesus the Nazarene, came to treat him, but Rabbi Yishmael did not let him do so. And ben Dama said to him: Rabbi Yishmael, my brother, let him treat me, and I will be healed by him. And I will cite a verse from the Torah to prove that accepting medical treatment from a heretic is permitted in this situation. But ben Dama did not manage to complete the statement before his soul departed from his body and he died.
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neilgodfrey
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Re: Where do I find in the Tosefta Chullin a story of Jacob the Christian heretic?

Post by neilgodfrey »

StephenGoranson wrote: Thu Jul 29, 2021 3:20 am Your link is to Babylonian Talmud. Tosefta is a different collection.
https://www.sefaria.org/Tosefta_Chullin.2?lang=bi
Jacob Neusner has a translation of Tosefta
Did you mean to provide a link to the "Jacob the heretic" stories? I don't see them in that page.

But yes, the passage is in Neusner's Tosefta 5th Division -- which seems to be the only one missing from archive.org but a hard copy is available at the Uni of Qld library but stored in the warehouse -- which means I must wait some days before I can read it.

Damn frustrating in this internet age of so much instant access to have to wait for resources to arrive.
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neilgodfrey
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Re: Where do I find in the Tosefta Chullin a story of Jacob the Christian heretic?

Post by neilgodfrey »

Paul the Uncertain wrote: Thu Jul 29, 2021 4:19 am This may be the story you're looking for:

https://www.sefaria.org/Avodah_Zarah.27b?lang=bi

About half a dozen blocks in:
The baraita relates an incident illustrating this point. There was an incident involving ben Dama, son of Rabbi Yishmael’s sister, in which a snake bit him. And following the attack, Ya’akov of the village of Sekhanya, who was a heretic, a disciple of Jesus the Nazarene, came to treat him, but Rabbi Yishmael did not let him do so. And ben Dama said to him: Rabbi Yishmael, my brother, let him treat me, and I will be healed by him. And I will cite a verse from the Torah to prove that accepting medical treatment from a heretic is permitted in this situation. But ben Dama did not manage to complete the statement before his soul departed from his body and he died.
Oh my god you are beautiful. How the hell did you find that? And how was I expected to find it from the citation I was given?
StephenGoranson
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Re: Where do I find in the Tosefta Chullin a story of Jacob the Christian heretic?

Post by StephenGoranson »

https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id= ... 4&q1=jacob
Translations (plural) in R. Travers Herford. Christianity in Talmud and Midrash p. 103
Including Tosefta Hullin 2
StephenGoranson
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Re: Where do I find in the Tosefta Chullin a story of Jacob the Christian heretic?

Post by StephenGoranson »

At first, I did not cite Travers Herford—1903—because I tried to follow your rules, ng.

I have discussed minim accounts, with considerable bibliography, in my 1990 dissertation “Joseph…” and 1999 article, also with a title starting “Joseph….” Both available freely at:
https://people.duke.edu/~goranson/

You wrote that you would be grateful for assistance. But, no thanks.

Maybe it’s just your persona here, or a phase, but my experience of you:

Presumptuous. Rebarbative. And not grateful.
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neilgodfrey
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Re: Where do I find in the Tosefta Chullin a story of Jacob the Christian heretic?

Post by neilgodfrey »

StephenGoranson wrote: Thu Jul 29, 2021 6:31 am At first, I did not cite Travers Herford—1903—because I tried to follow your rules, ng.

I have discussed minim accounts, with considerable bibliography, in my 1990 dissertation “Joseph…” and 1999 article, also with a title starting “Joseph….” Both available freely at:
https://people.duke.edu/~goranson/

You wrote that you would be grateful for assistance. But, no thanks.

Maybe it’s just your persona here, or a phase, but my experience of you:

Presumptuous. Rebarbative. And not grateful.
Sorry, Stephen, but I did not follow your first comment and I did ask you for clarification. I am still not clear on where you seem to be saying that I went astray with the sefaria reference because it seems what I was looking for was indeed found there by another assistant -- though I thought you were indicating that my problem was that I linked to the wrong (Bab) Talmud.

And then you provided me with a source that contained only an extract of a passage even though I said in my OP that I had such extracts but was looking for something more.

Yes, our experiences with each other have been unpleasant, I'm sorry to say.
StephenGoranson
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Re: Where do I find in the Tosefta Chullin a story of Jacob the Christian heretic?

Post by StephenGoranson »

I do not know what you mean by "extract," a word that I don't see in the OP. These are different accounts.
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