Where do I find in the Tosefta Chullin a story of Jacob the Christian heretic?
- neilgodfrey
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Where do I find in the Tosefta Chullin a story of Jacob the Christian heretic?
The Wikipedia entry for Jacob the heretic references Tosefta Chullin 2:22-23 for a story of Jacob the heretic coming to heal a snakebite in the name of Jesus or Yeshu ben Pandera; and this story is followed by another anecdote involving the same Jacob of the Jesus heresy.
Another sources give the same reference.
So I turn to https://www.sefaria.org/Chullin and cannot see chapter and verse setup that leads me to 2:22-23 where I am unable to find anything that references Jacob or Yakub or Jesus or Yeshu -- anywhere from 1 to 12.
Is there a different numbering system somewhere? Am I in the wrong place entirely? Or is sefaria's online William Davidson edition truncated somehow? Or is there another site that provides the passage or link to it?
I can find translations of the passage in other sources but they don't give me the borader context. I would like to find a translation online of the entire Chullin/Hullin 2 if possible.
Any guidance would be very much appreciated.
Another sources give the same reference.
So I turn to https://www.sefaria.org/Chullin and cannot see chapter and verse setup that leads me to 2:22-23 where I am unable to find anything that references Jacob or Yakub or Jesus or Yeshu -- anywhere from 1 to 12.
Is there a different numbering system somewhere? Am I in the wrong place entirely? Or is sefaria's online William Davidson edition truncated somehow? Or is there another site that provides the passage or link to it?
I can find translations of the passage in other sources but they don't give me the borader context. I would like to find a translation online of the entire Chullin/Hullin 2 if possible.
Any guidance would be very much appreciated.
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Re: Where do I find in the Tosefta Chullin a story of Jacob the Christian heretic?
Your link is to Babylonian Talmud. Tosefta is a different collection.
https://www.sefaria.org/Tosefta_Chullin.2?lang=bi
Jacob Neusner has a translation of Tosefta
https://www.sefaria.org/Tosefta_Chullin.2?lang=bi
Jacob Neusner has a translation of Tosefta
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Re: Where do I find in the Tosefta Chullin a story of Jacob the Christian heretic?
This may be the story you're looking for:
https://www.sefaria.org/Avodah_Zarah.27b?lang=bi
About half a dozen blocks in:
https://www.sefaria.org/Avodah_Zarah.27b?lang=bi
About half a dozen blocks in:
The baraita relates an incident illustrating this point. There was an incident involving ben Dama, son of Rabbi Yishmael’s sister, in which a snake bit him. And following the attack, Ya’akov of the village of Sekhanya, who was a heretic, a disciple of Jesus the Nazarene, came to treat him, but Rabbi Yishmael did not let him do so. And ben Dama said to him: Rabbi Yishmael, my brother, let him treat me, and I will be healed by him. And I will cite a verse from the Torah to prove that accepting medical treatment from a heretic is permitted in this situation. But ben Dama did not manage to complete the statement before his soul departed from his body and he died.
- neilgodfrey
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Re: Where do I find in the Tosefta Chullin a story of Jacob the Christian heretic?
Did you mean to provide a link to the "Jacob the heretic" stories? I don't see them in that page.StephenGoranson wrote: ↑Thu Jul 29, 2021 3:20 am Your link is to Babylonian Talmud. Tosefta is a different collection.
https://www.sefaria.org/Tosefta_Chullin.2?lang=bi
Jacob Neusner has a translation of Tosefta
But yes, the passage is in Neusner's Tosefta 5th Division -- which seems to be the only one missing from archive.org but a hard copy is available at the Uni of Qld library but stored in the warehouse -- which means I must wait some days before I can read it.
Damn frustrating in this internet age of so much instant access to have to wait for resources to arrive.
- neilgodfrey
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Re: Where do I find in the Tosefta Chullin a story of Jacob the Christian heretic?
Oh my god you are beautiful. How the hell did you find that? And how was I expected to find it from the citation I was given?Paul the Uncertain wrote: ↑Thu Jul 29, 2021 4:19 am This may be the story you're looking for:
https://www.sefaria.org/Avodah_Zarah.27b?lang=bi
About half a dozen blocks in:
The baraita relates an incident illustrating this point. There was an incident involving ben Dama, son of Rabbi Yishmael’s sister, in which a snake bit him. And following the attack, Ya’akov of the village of Sekhanya, who was a heretic, a disciple of Jesus the Nazarene, came to treat him, but Rabbi Yishmael did not let him do so. And ben Dama said to him: Rabbi Yishmael, my brother, let him treat me, and I will be healed by him. And I will cite a verse from the Torah to prove that accepting medical treatment from a heretic is permitted in this situation. But ben Dama did not manage to complete the statement before his soul departed from his body and he died.
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Re: Where do I find in the Tosefta Chullin a story of Jacob the Christian heretic?
https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id= ... 4&q1=jacob
Translations (plural) in R. Travers Herford. Christianity in Talmud and Midrash p. 103
Including Tosefta Hullin 2
Translations (plural) in R. Travers Herford. Christianity in Talmud and Midrash p. 103
Including Tosefta Hullin 2
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Re: Where do I find in the Tosefta Chullin a story of Jacob the Christian heretic?
At first, I did not cite Travers Herford—1903—because I tried to follow your rules, ng.
I have discussed minim accounts, with considerable bibliography, in my 1990 dissertation “Joseph…” and 1999 article, also with a title starting “Joseph….” Both available freely at:
https://people.duke.edu/~goranson/
You wrote that you would be grateful for assistance. But, no thanks.
Maybe it’s just your persona here, or a phase, but my experience of you:
Presumptuous. Rebarbative. And not grateful.
I have discussed minim accounts, with considerable bibliography, in my 1990 dissertation “Joseph…” and 1999 article, also with a title starting “Joseph….” Both available freely at:
https://people.duke.edu/~goranson/
You wrote that you would be grateful for assistance. But, no thanks.
Maybe it’s just your persona here, or a phase, but my experience of you:
Presumptuous. Rebarbative. And not grateful.
- neilgodfrey
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Re: Where do I find in the Tosefta Chullin a story of Jacob the Christian heretic?
Sorry, Stephen, but I did not follow your first comment and I did ask you for clarification. I am still not clear on where you seem to be saying that I went astray with the sefaria reference because it seems what I was looking for was indeed found there by another assistant -- though I thought you were indicating that my problem was that I linked to the wrong (Bab) Talmud.StephenGoranson wrote: ↑Thu Jul 29, 2021 6:31 am At first, I did not cite Travers Herford—1903—because I tried to follow your rules, ng.
I have discussed minim accounts, with considerable bibliography, in my 1990 dissertation “Joseph…” and 1999 article, also with a title starting “Joseph….” Both available freely at:
https://people.duke.edu/~goranson/
You wrote that you would be grateful for assistance. But, no thanks.
Maybe it’s just your persona here, or a phase, but my experience of you:
Presumptuous. Rebarbative. And not grateful.
And then you provided me with a source that contained only an extract of a passage even though I said in my OP that I had such extracts but was looking for something more.
Yes, our experiences with each other have been unpleasant, I'm sorry to say.
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Re: Where do I find in the Tosefta Chullin a story of Jacob the Christian heretic?
I do not know what you mean by "extract," a word that I don't see in the OP. These are different accounts.