a new Gospel of Thomas book excerpt

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gryan
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Re: a new Gospel of Thomas book excerpt

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I wondering how he interprets "James the just" in gThom saying 12. Was he one of the 12 apostles?
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mlinssen
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Re: a new Gospel of Thomas book excerpt

Post by mlinssen »

gryan wrote: Tue Aug 03, 2021 5:40 pm I wondering how he interprets "James the just" in gThom saying 12. Was he one of the 12 apostles?
Do you even care what he has to say on that? Why is it that opinions from "scholars" count, even though they demonstrate at length that they can't read the text, let alone understand it, and are immensely incapable of substantiating their opinions?
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mlinssen
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David William Kim on Jacob the Righteous / James the Just

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Footnote numbering left intact

The ⲡⲇⲓⲕⲁⲓⲟⲥ, “the Just,” of Logion 12 is not that person’s real name, but a nickname supporting the real name ïⲁⲕⲱⲃⲟⲥ, “James,” so everyone easily recognized ïⲁⲕⲱⲃⲟⲥ as the ⲇⲓⲕⲁⲓⲟⲥ. This is repeated in ïⲱϩⲁⲛⲛⲏⲥ ⲡⲃⲁⲡⲧⲓⲥⲧⲏⲥ, “John the Baptist”; the ⲡⲃⲁⲡⲧⲓⲥⲧⲏⲥ of Logion 46 was the major activity of ïⲱϩⲁⲛⲛⲏⲥ.


The building storm suggested in this dire warning was realized through the dramatic death of James “the Righteous,” called the brother of Jesus, who was assassinated under the command of the high priest (62 CE): “Ananus … assembled the Sanhedrin of judges, and brought before them the brother of Jesus, the so-called Christ, James by name, together with some others, and accused them of violating the law, and condemned them to be stoned” (Josephus, Antiquitates Judaeorum 20.9.1 [200]).20 The presidential leadership of James in Jerusalem (37–62 CE), according to the chronological writing of Eusebius (Hist. eccles. 3.10.11–2), was not immediately handed over to Simeon (who was also a relative of Jesus) as the second bishop of Jerusalem until after its fall in 70 CE. This indirectly implies that the Jerusalem Christian groups, after the martyrdom of the chairman of the early Jerusalem Council, were scattered or became an underground movement for almost a decade between 62 and 70 CE. It can therefore be logically theorized that if the Christian Letter of the Epistle of James was recorded by the historical person James himself before his martyrdom (62 CE),21 there is no reason the Thomasine community could not also have had its own independent text in this period.


The Oxyrhynchus fragments do not contain this part of Logion 12, but the Nag Hammadi text (NHC II, 2.34:25–30) in the context of the “JudaicChristian element” gives ïⲁⲕϣⲃⲟⲥ ⲡⲇⲓⲕⲁⲓⲟⲥ (James the Righteous)105 as the answer to ⲛⲓⲙ` ⲡⲉ ⲉⲧ ⲛⲁ ̄ ⲣ ⲛⲟϭ ⲉ ϩⲣⲁ ï ⲉϫⲱ ⲛ, “Who is to be our leader?,” thus accepting him as the leader following Jesus in the new religious movement (44–62). The Judaic-Christians, mainly called “the sect of the Nazoreans” (Acts 24:5) or “Ebionites,”106 evidently continued until the end of the second century, and they were very strong tradition keepers of the new Jesus faith. However, the perspective that the figure of ïⲁⲕⲱⲃⲟⲥ ⲡⲇⲓⲕⲁⲓⲟⲥ was well recognized in the Thomasine community obviously echoes the interactive relationship of James and Thomas in the Christian Assembly of Jerusalem.107 Paul also testifies the key leadership of ïⲁⲕⲱⲃⲟⲥ ⲡⲇⲓⲕⲁⲓⲟⲥ as “one of three pillars” with whom he (with Barnabas) was authorized to work among Gentiles in the land of Syria; “James, Peter and John, those reputed to be pillars, gave me (Paul) and Barnabas the right hand of fellowship when they recognized the grace given to me (Paul). They agreed that we should go to the Gentiles, and they to the Jews” (Gal 2:9).108 In this light, we can be certain that ⲑⲱⲙⲁⲥ is not excluded from the numbers of ⲙ̄ⲙⲁⲑⲏⲧⲏⲥ ⲛ̄̄ⲓⲥ̄. The concept that the authority of the leadership for the new movement was passed on to ïⲁⲕⲱⲃⲟⲥ ⲡⲇⲓⲕⲁⲓⲟⲥ 109 also anticipates that subsequent leadership of some kind would be possibly reimparted to Thomas from ⲡⲇⲓⲕⲁⲓⲟⲥ when the Jerusalem Christian community was unaccountably growing and unexpectedly extended. Robert Eisenman, intriguingly, in trying to reconstruct direct appointments, views the historical James as “the Bishop of Bishops” or “Archbishop,” advocating the role of Thomas as a regional bishop of Jerusalem.110 The report of Luke on the new religious “revival” upholds the decisive effect of the disciples’ leadership in Jerusalem: “so the word of God spread. The number of disciples in Jerusalem increased rapidly, and a large number of priests became obedient to the faith” (Acts 6:7). In the narrative, New Testament Apocrypha specialist Fred Lapham fancies that “the Twelve were generally to be found about their missionary tasks,”111 thus reckoning with the independent work of Thomas as one of the Twelve disciples of the new Christ movement. That the earliest Judaic-Christians traveled and established local churches throughout Palestine (Gal 1:22, Acts 9:31) and the Diaspora (Acts 9:1) in the contexts of “Jewish Christians outside Palestine” is well and truly established by the New Testament Letter of James, which is addressed to “the twelve tribes that are in the Diaspora” (1:1). But if one seriously considers the large population of Jerusalem (approximately 80,000 in the first century112), the location of the Thomasine community is better placed somewhere in the city.113 The incredible growth of the Jerusalem church described in Acts 6:7 (see earlier) indicates that up to half of the population of Jerusalem (40,000), or at least one in every three people (26,667), could have been converts to the new doctrine of Jesus. Luke’s account of the Christian population of Jerusalem—“the number of the men came to be about five thousand (5,000)” (Acts 4:4)—at least helps us to approximate the number at 20,000 followers, since women and children were not included in the population count in the Jewish society of the first century, and one family was in general composed of four members: father, mother, and two children (Mt 14:21).114 Furthermore, another demonstration of the growing numbers of the Christian population in Jerusalem in Acts 4 (“And all the more believers in the Lord, multitudes of men and women, were constantly added to their number,” perhaps up to the 5,000) suggests a real possibility that the Christian population in Jerusalem lay between 20,000 and 40,000 in the period prior to 62 and before the death of ïⲁⲕⲱⲃⲟⲥ ⲡⲇⲓⲕⲁⲓⲟⲥ. If the total size of the Christian groups is connected with the meaning of “the whole church” (Acts 5:14), “the apostles and elders” at the first Jerusalem Council must have been representatives of many regional churches or communities, especially from in and around the city itself, with the average size of a single group being between 1,600 and 3,200. Although it is risky to account for the exact number in any ancient Christian group, especially in the first century, the Thomasine community, which is presumed to have had at least 400–800 families, looms as a very large church grouping which would need its own version of the Jesus tradition from the memories and experiences of its founder, Thomas.


ïⲁⲕⲱⲃⲟⲥ ⲡⲇⲓⲕⲁⲓⲟⲥ, “James the Righteous,”64 according to Logion 12, is not really on the level of discipleship but is seen rather as the leader of the disciples after Jesus, inheriting the authority of Jesus, even though the character is not present in a practical sense in any dialogue of Jesus with his disciples: “who is it who shall be great over us? Jesus said to them: Wherever you have come, you will go to James the righteous.” The name of ïⲱϩⲁⲛⲛⲏⲥ ⲡⲃⲁⲡⲧⲓⲥⲧⲏⲥ, “John the Baptist,” is also mentioned in Logion 46,65 where Jesus, in the account of ϩⲛ̄ⲛ̄ϫⲡⲟ ⲛ̄ⲛ̄ϩⲓⲟⲙⲉ, “those born of women,” talks about the period of time in which ⲁⲇⲁⲙ (Adam) symbolizes the beginning of time and ïⲱϩⲁⲛⲛⲏⲥ ⲡⲃⲁⲡⲧⲓⲥⲧⲏⲥ, “John the Baptist,” its end. John the Baptist in Gos. Thom. eventually becomes a standard figure for the illustration of ⲧⲙⲛ̄ⲧⲉⲣⲟ, “the kingdom”: “there is no one so superior to John the Baptist. … Yet … whichever one of you comes to be a child will be acquainted with the kingdom and will become superior to John.” The Thomasine John the Baptist, likewise, is not treated as a disciple, but remains as an exemplar for the aphoristic saying of Jesus. Such an approach in the text disregards the masculine value of the non-disciples, as also in the cases of the male disciples Simon Peter, Matthew, and Thomas (Logion 13).

As usual, this is ruminating rubbish, echoing what others said about any James whatsoever.
Does this have to do with what's in Thomas? Does Kim even mention the curious phrase for whose sake heaven and earth have come to exist as he puts it?

How does
This book offer[s] a detailed analysis of the Gospel of Thomas in its historic and literary context, providing a new understanding of the genesis of the Jesus tradition.
Detailed analysis of the Gospel of Thomas? Superficial ramblings echoing what Josephus and the Church Fathers wanted everyone to believe, combined with what contemporary fantasy writers opinionate on Christian origins. A pathetic pretext to publish preposterous, prattling pettinesses that were - long prior - privvy to all participants in the Thomasine parlour

This is all, I repeat: all, that Kim has to "detail" on logion 12. There is some stuff in the notes but it's at the same level of chatter and hearsay

When will these clowns start to actually read the text and comment on what it says, in stead of merely discarding the text and mistranslating it on every single occasion, hurriedly hasting themselves to follow in the footsteps of their fellow incompetents at the top of the food chain?
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mlinssen
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More unsubstantiated claims from Kim on Thomas

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About 60% of the words of the Coptic text are derivatives of Greek words.121

What does the footnote say?

121 For more details, see later and R.Mc. Helms, Who Wrote the Gospels? (Altadena: Millenium Press, 1997), 100–108.

I can do the math: there are about 500 occurrences of Greek loanwords in the entire text of around 6,500 words. If one counts IS and other names as such, then feel free to slap on another 100+ and you might get to 10%

Yet 60%? That absurd claim deserves much more than nothing but a pointer to eight pages in a book by someone writing about "gospels" in general. The chapter in question is titled Lost Gospels Thomas and Q and comprises 23 pages

This is Thomasine scholarship par exemple. This is its feeble and infantile state, its dire demonstration of wishful thinking, fancifully framing fantastic fables fulfilling fatally flawed fata morganas
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