Minimal Marcion

Discussion about the New Testament, apocrypha, gnostics, church fathers, Christian origins, historical Jesus or otherwise, etc.
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mlinssen
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Re: Minimal Marcion

Post by mlinssen »

I have finished the book, and am working with the Reconstruction now.
If you have Roth: just toss it, it is nothing more than Harnack in a fresh jacket, and both are basically mere copies of what the Church Fathers alleged

One of these days we might find Marcion for real, just like we found Thomas. And half of what Roth and Harnack claim will just not be in it, because it concerned attempts by the Church Fathers to lend credibility to their own lies.
I really like the sharp eye and critical thinking of Klinghardt, and I will match his Reconstruction to Thomas

But not here.
Bye
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MrMacSon
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Re: Klinghardt's complete Marcion in English - let the (end)games truly begin

Post by MrMacSon »

mlinssen wrote: Thu Oct 07, 2021 5:57 am ... it becomes apparent that Coptic Thomas is the very first "gospel" (albeit never intended as one at all whatsoever)which Marcion took into a narrative, after which Mark quickly released a proto-copy of that ...
Jason Beduhn provided some comments about Thomas in The New First Testament: Marcion's Scriptural Canon including

“The bulk of [G.Thomas’s] material has parallels in the canonical gospels, nineteen passages with a strong relationship to material in Luke96.”

He notes “only four of the nineteen have content unattested for in the Evangelion;97 and, given the selective character of our gospels even these four could have been present in the Evangelion’s text.”

He then says, “It therefore remains a possibility that the author/editor of Thomas worked with the Evangelion rather than Luke as a source,” but I guess you'd argue for the converse ie. that the author/editor of the Evangelion worked from Thomas [without the author/editor[s] of Luke having done so primarily, if at all].

96 Thomas 3 (Luke 17.21b); 5 (8.17); 10 (12.49); 14 (10.8-9); 16 (12.49, 51-53), 21 (12:35, 37), 45 (6:44-45), 47 (5:39), 61 (17:34), 63 (12:16-21), 63 (14:16-24), 72 (12:13-14), 79 (11:27-28, 23:29), 91 (12:56), 95 (6:34-35), 96 (13:21), 102 (11:42-43), 103 (12:35), 113 (17:20-21)

97 Luke 6.44 in Thomas 45; 5:39 in 47; 17.34 in 61; 23.59 in 79

Beduhn also note in endnote 95 (of Chapter 3) that, "The Gospel of Thomas…attests no material included in current reconstruction of Q before the Sermon of the Mount/Plain (Q 6.20/Thomas 54)."
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Re: Klinghardt's complete Marcion in English - let the (end)games truly begin

Post by mlinssen »

MrMacSon wrote: Wed Oct 20, 2021 1:08 am
mlinssen wrote: Thu Oct 07, 2021 5:57 am ... it becomes apparent that Coptic Thomas is the very first "gospel" (albeit never intended as one at all whatsoever)which Marcion took into a narrative, after which Mark quickly released a proto-copy of that ...
Jason Beduhn provided some comments about Thomas in The New First Testament: Marcion's Scriptural Canon including

“The bulk of [G.Thomas’s] material has parallels in the canonical gospels, nineteen passages with a strong relationship to material in Luke96.”

He notes “only four of the nineteen have content unattested for in the Evangelion;97 and, given the selective character of our gospels even these four could have been present in the Evangelion’s text.”

He then says, “It therefore remains a possibility that the author/editor of Thomas worked with the Evangelion rather than Luke as a source,” but I guess you'd argue for the converse ie. that the author/editor of the Evangelion worked from Thomas [without the author/editor[s] of Luke having done so primarily, if at all].

96 Thomas 3 (Luke 17.21b); 5 (8.17); 10 (12.49); 14 (10.8-9); 16 (12.49, 51-53), 21 (12:35, 37), 45 (6:44-45), 47 (5:39), 61 (17:34), 63 (12:16-21), 63 (14:16-24), 72 (12:13-14), 79 (11:27-28, 23:29), 91 (12:56), 95 (6:34-35), 96 (13:21), 102 (11:42-43), 103 (12:35), 113 (17:20-21)

97 Luke 6.44 in Thomas 45; 5:39 in 47; 17.34 in 61; 23.59 in 79

Beduhn also note in endnote 95 (of Chapter 3) that, "The Gospel of Thomas…attests no material included in current reconstruction of Q before the Sermon of the Mount/Plain (Q 6.20/Thomas 54)."
Hi Mac. If Thomas (unknowingly and unwillingly) stood at the basis of all of Christianity, the remainder follows by itself, I think

BeDuhn page 96:

A reconstruction of the Evangelion, and an acceptance of it as a signifjcant witness to gospel development, may not revolutionize New Testament studies, therefore, but it does present the possibility of clarifying and even solving certain long-standing questions, and opens a number of interesting lines of investigation worth pursuing. The reconstructions of Q and of “proto-Luke” need to be reconsidered, as does the analysis of the possible sources of Thomas.

This decade will very convincingly present text critical evidence for Thomas being the basis to all of Christianity; Marcion hijacking him into a narrative; and the canonicals subsequently hijacking Marcion and affixing him to the Tanakh / Judaism and turning it all into Christianity-as-we-know-it

The Chrestians are very important there, as e.g. the gospel of Philip narrates how Chrestians were converted to Christians by baptism: https://www.metalogos.org/files/philip.html logion 63 - Brown has every word that says 'Chrestian' translated with 'Christic'. Consult the hyperlinear link to logion 63 (https://www.metalogos.org/files/ph_interlin/ph063.html) and Till's transcription that belongs to it: https://www.metalogos.org/files/till/w-till-12.gif
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Re: Klinghardt's complete Marcion in English - let the (end)games truly begin

Post by MrMacSon »

mlinssen wrote: Wed Nov 24, 2021 3:05 am
Hi Mac. If Thomas (unknowingly and unwillingly) stood at the basis of all of Christianity, the remainder follows by itself, I think

BeDuhn page 96:

A reconstruction of the Evangelion...opens a number of interesting lines of investigation worth pursuing. The reconstructions...of “proto-Luke” need to be reconsidered, as does the analysis of the possible sources of Thomas*.

  • I presume Beduhn was not thinking of Thomas as a/the key source,
    but at least he's [perhaps] pointing to [everyone] reconsidering the role of Thomas
    (not that many will take notice, yet)

mlinssen wrote: Wed Nov 24, 2021 3:05 am
This decade will very convincingly present text critical evidence for Thomas being the basis to all of Christianity; Marcion hijacking him into a narrative; and the canonicals subsequently hijacking Marcion and affixing him to the Tanakh / Judaism and turning it all into Christianity-as-we-know-it

The Chrestians are very important there, as e.g. the gospel of Philip narrates how Chrestians were converted to Christians by baptism: https://www.metalogos.org/files/philip.html logion 63 - Brown has every word that says 'Chrestian' translated with 'Christic'. Consult the hyperlinear link to logion 63 (https://www.metalogos.org/files/ph_interlin/ph063.html) and Till's transcription that belongs to it: https://www.metalogos.org/files/till/w-till-12.gif
.
  • Cheers, I'll check them out.
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Re: Klinghardt's complete Marcion in English - let the (end)games truly begin

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mlinssen wrote: Wed Nov 24, 2021 3:05 am The Chrestians are very important there, as e.g. the gospel of Philip narrates how Chrestians were converted to Christians by baptism: https://www.metalogos.org/files/philip.html logion 63 - Brown has every word that says 'Chrestian' translated with 'Christic'.

.
.63. If one goes down into the water (of Baptism) and comes back up without having received anything, saying ‘I'm a Christic’, he has taken the name on loan. Yet if he receives the Sacred Spirit, he has the gift of the name. He who has received a gift is not deprived of it, but he who has taken a loan has it demanded from him. (Jn 4:10, Th 41; hyperlinear)

Thomas 41:
IS says : Whoever has in his hand, to him shall (more) be given; and whoever does not have, from him shall be taken the little which he has.
(= Mt 13:12; hyperlinear)
  • Matt 13:12:
    For to those who have, more will be given, and they will have an abundance; but from those who have nothing, even what they have will be taken away.
John 4:10:
'Jesus answered her, “If you knew the gift of God, and who it is that is saying to you, ‘Give me a drink,’ you would have asked him, and he would have given you living water”.'
.

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Re: Klinghardt's complete Marcion in English - let the (end)games truly begin

Post by MrMacSon »

oooooh

.57. "The Eucharist is Yeshua IS. For in Aramaic they call him farisatha1 (#rp)—this is, the outspread. For Yeshua IS came to crucify the world."
(Odes of St Solomon, 27:1-2, ‘I stretched out my hands and sanctified my Lord; for the extension of my hands is his sign’; hyperlinear)

1 https://biblehub.com/hebrew/strongs_6566.htm and https://biblehub.com/hebrew/6566.htm ??
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Re: Klinghardt's complete Marcion in English - let the (end)games truly begin

Post by mlinssen »

MrMacSon wrote: Wed Nov 24, 2021 3:17 am
mlinssen wrote: Wed Nov 24, 2021 3:05 am
Hi Mac. If Thomas (unknowingly and unwillingly) stood at the basis of all of Christianity, the remainder follows by itself, I think

BeDuhn page 96:

A reconstruction of the Evangelion...opens a number of interesting lines of investigation worth pursuing. The reconstructions...of “proto-Luke” need to be reconsidered, as does the analysis of the possible sources of Thomas*.

  • I presume Beduhn was not thinking of Thomas as a/the key source,
    but at least he's [perhaps] pointing to [everyone] reconsidering the role of Thomas
    (not that many will take notice, yet)

And, of course, any reconstruction of the communities and ideologies that might stand behind or around the respective gospel texts must be adjusted to deal with discrete phases of development that the Evangelion may permit us to distinguish for the fjrst time. Perhaps the most intriguing aspect of the latter point is the conclusion that the community and ideology of the Evangelion is not necessarily Marcionite, but possibly reflects a particularly early Asian “Gentile” form of Christianity not yet subject to the developments of the second and later centuries.

BeDuhn - page 96-97

I'd like to suggest that, subsconsciously :lol: , he did have Thomas in mind.
(Not) taking notice of something is mostly a matter of the ease with which its visibility can be ignored. I'm sure I don't have to lay out the concept of life cycle development (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Life_cycle - pick any of them really)

Sometimes I get the impression that I have to defend the fact that my ideas haven't caught on yet, and that such is proof of the fact that they're neglectable.
My first publication was on Thursday, 18 July 2019 22:32:13 - a week after I joined academia.edu

https://www.academia.edu/39868220/The_p ... w_him_them

And it shows LOL, it's rather cute - I thought that Thomas was ridiculing God. But he doesn't even care for him
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Re: Klinghardt's complete Marcion in English - let the (end)games truly begin

Post by MrMacSon »

mlinssen wrote: Wed Nov 24, 2021 3:53 am
BeDuhn - page 96-97
I'd like to suggest that, subsconsciously :lol: , he did have Thomas in mind.
.
That first sentence suggests he had something in mind:

.
And, of course, any reconstruction of the communities and ideologies that might stand behind or around the respective gospel texts must be adjusted to deal with discrete phases of development that the Evangelion may permit us to distinguish for the fjrst time. Perhaps the most intriguing aspect of the latter point is the conclusion that the community and ideology of the Evangelion is not necessarily Marcionite, but possibly reflects a particularly early Asian “Gentile” form of Christianity not yet subject to the developments of the second and later centuries.

BeDuhn - page 96-97

"(Not) taking notice of something is mostly a matter of the ease with which its visibility can be ignored." :D
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Re: Klinghardt's complete Marcion in English - let the (end)games truly begin

Post by mlinssen »

MrMacSon wrote: Wed Nov 24, 2021 3:39 am
oooooh

.57. "The Eucharist is Yeshua IS. For in Aramaic they call him farisatha1 (#rp)—this is, the outspread. For Yeshua IS came to crucify the world."
(Odes of St Solomon, 27:1-2, ‘I stretched out my hands and sanctified my Lord; for the extension of my hands is his sign’; hyperlinear)

1 https://biblehub.com/hebrew/strongs_6566.htm and https://biblehub.com/hebrew/6566.htm ??
Yes, it is a treasure trove.
I have decided to rehost his site after piecing it back together from how it was a month before he passed away, expanded with (only!) the necessary make-over and update, and fixing of a few dozen refs that always had been broken. And I replaced the stained glass pic with that of freelyreceive.net, just for the hell of it

Check out his CV, it's below his link at the top of the landing page. Click the Crum link on that same page, click the Plumley link. He made everyone else look like a petty amateur, and his work simply is marvellously sublime. Basically my Translation is little more than his one, although he was "one of those Yeshua-sayers" and it shows: he didn't think of translating colostrum with colostrum, that simply had to say leaven - yet still, he was the very best by far, and the most forthcoming, much more so than the alleged literal translation by Grondin. Brown even has emendations in his interlinears, yet not in the "regular translation" - still, that is much more than everyone else but Guillaumont and Layton have
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Re: Klinghardt's complete Marcion in English - let the (end)games truly begin

Post by MrMacSon »

oooooh x 2

.
.51. The Apostles who preceded us called (him) thus: Yeshua IHS the Nazirite Messiah—this is Yeshua IHS the Nazirite pe.XS [Christ]. The last name is the pe.XS [Christ], the first is Yeshua IS, that in the middle is the Nazirite. ‘Messiah’ has two references: both the anointed and also the measured. 'Yeshua' IS in Hebrew is the atonement. ‘Nazara’ is the truth, therefore the Nazirite is the true. The p.XS is the measured, the Nazirite and 'Yeshua' IS are the measurement.

https://www.metalogos.org/files/ph_interlin/ph051.html

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