Schmiedel's case for Aretas being an interpolation in Paul

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Giuseppe
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Schmiedel's case for Aretas being an interpolation in Paul

Post by Giuseppe »


With the majority of commentators, we reject the suggestion that these verses are an interpolation. It was proposed by Schmiedel, who argued that Paul's readers would not see the visionary experience of 12.2-4 as an instance of the weakness he speaks of in v. 30. He therefore supposed that an interpolator may have added vv. 32-33 to provide at least one example of such ἀσθένεια

https://books.google.it/books?id=E0hWGl ... el&f=false

If I must boast, I will boast of the things that show my weakness. 31 The God and Father of the Lord Jesus, who is to be praised forever, knows that I am not lying. 32 In Damascus the governor under King Aretas had the city of the Damascenes guarded in order to arrest me. 33 But I was lowered in a basket from a window in the wall and slipped through his hands.


12 I must go on boasting. Although there is nothing to be gained, I will go on to visions and revelations from the Lord. 2 I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago was caught up to the third heaven. Whether it was in the body or out of the body I do not know—God knows. 3 And I know that this man—whether in the body or apart from the body I do not know, but God knows— 4 was caught up to paradise and heard inexpressible things, things that no one is permitted to tell. 5 I will boast about a man like that, but I will not boast about myself, except about my weaknesses


It makes sense. Afterall, I note two strong clues supporting the interpolation of the part above in red:
  • the reference to the possibility of a lie, in verse 11:31, the signature of the interpolator?
  • in verse 12:5 Paul claims that he will boast only about him as being ascended to heaven during a hallucination, not for other actions on earth. This excludes a priori the escape from Damascus as something to boast about.
Giuseppe
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Re: Schmiedel's case for Aretas being an interpolation in Paul

Post by Giuseppe »

Unfortunately, in the link above I don't see the title of the book where Schmiedel wrote his case for an interpolation of Aretas in Paul.

I would like quote him fully.
Giuseppe
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Re: Schmiedel's case for Aretas being an interpolation in Paul

Post by Giuseppe »

Now, it is interesting the fact that Moutier-Rousset, in his Legend of Jesus, wrote in a note:

Perhaps Paul meant by Arabia, the surroundings of Damascus, capital of the Arab kingdom of Areta IV and then part of Arabia Petrea, which is adjacent to Galilee.

Hence the interpolator had this in mind:
  • he wanted to give an example of weakness for Paul, different from hallucinations.
  • he could give one only by making reference to Paul being persecuted, and not to Paul being persecutor of the Christians (=the exact contrary of a weak Paul!)
  • therefore, he wanted to make reference to the period immediately following the conversion of Paul
  • in Galatians, Paul says that he went to Arabia, then to Damascus, immediately after his conversion
  • now, per Moutier-Rousset's note above, "Arabia" meant: the kingdom of Aretas
  • hence, being Damascus mentioned after Arabia in Galatians 1, and being "Arabia" another name for Damascus, the interpolator did 2 + 2 and he remembered that Damascus was under the ethnarch of Aretas (totally irrelevant if he meant Aretas III, IV or V), hence he invented a Paul persecuted by the ethnarch of Aretas in Damascus.
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Irish1975
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Re: Schmiedel's case for Aretas being an interpolation in Paul

Post by Irish1975 »


In Damascus the ethnarch under Aretas the king was guarding the city of the Damascenes in order to seize me, and I was let down in a basket through a window [m]in the wall, and so escaped his hands.

ἐν Δαμασκῷ ὁ ἐθνάρχης Ἁρέτα τοῦ βασιλέως ἐφρούρει τὴν πόλιν Δαμασκηνῶν πιάσαι με, καὶ διὰ θυρίδος ἐν σαργάνῃ ἐχαλάσθην διὰ τοῦ τείχους καὶ ἐξέφυγον τὰς χεῖρας αὐτοῦ.

Some points in favor of the hypothesis of interpolation—

These verses differ from their context in having the form of historical narrative. Where else in the epistle do we encounter the historical style? Not anywhere in the long discourse about boasting that spans chapters 10 thru 12, with this snippet thrown in the middle.

It must be read as an abrupt injection of a quite different rhetorical style into what otherwise reads as a personal, passionate, intimate plea with his flock, replete with claims to high spiritual privilege. The story does not fit the context, either logically or rhetorically. If someone should compare it to the narrative of Galatians 1, the obvious difference here would be that the apostle fails to make an argument based on this narration. We are supposed to believe that it supports the idea of boasting about his weakness. But it does nothing of the kind.

As Giuseppe noted, the οὐ ψεύδομαι (“I am not lying!”) of the immediately preceding verse is not reassuring, nor relevant, since we don’t know what we are supposed to infer from this little gesture at a story. It has no evident bearing on the apostle’s larger purpose, which is to defend his apostolic credentials against those of the super-apostles. Being clever in a moment of danger, or even blessed by divine providence, is no sign of apostolic authority.

As a point of methodology and skepticism, I think it is unwarranted to speculate about the motives of a possible interpolator. Strictly speaking, it does count as evidence for the fact of interpolation. And we should not seek to counter the tendentious assumptions of the traditional reading of the epistles by importing subjective impressions of our own into the argument.
gryan
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Re: Schmiedel's case for Aretas being an interpolation in Paul

Post by gryan »

Re: "The very fact that interpolation as been suggested requires those who accept these verses as original to explain why Paul should account this story here. There are a number of suggestions. (a)The incident was connected in point of time with the event narrated in 12.1-4..." (Dr Margaret Thrall)

I accept these verses as original, and I think the incident of escaping Damascus/Aretas was connected in point of time with the Third Heaven ascent. My first visit to this forum back in 2018 was aimed at formulating this hypothesis: viewtopic.php?f=3&t=4225

My argument was based on the priority of Galatians and 2 Corinthians over the narrative in Acts.

In both Gal and 2 Cor, Paul's "I am not lying" claim is connected with 1) departing Damascus and 2) a revelation. I think the Third Heaven revelation of 2 Cor and Paul's initial revelation in Gal were one and the same incident, and that this revelation happened soon after departing Damascus to escape arrest. Thus, in Paul's mind, the incident of escaping Damascus was the immediate chronological prelude to the Third Heaven ascent.

I think that he was chased out of Damascus for causing public disorder. I think he was chased out when he was still "Saul" the persecutor who wanted to destroy the "assembly". Against Acts, I think this incident of departing Damascus by a basket immediately preceded his revelation/call/conversion. Saul was on the road departing (not approaching) Damascus when he experienced his revelatory call.
Last edited by gryan on Mon Aug 09, 2021 12:20 am, edited 2 times in total.
Giuseppe
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Re: Schmiedel's case for Aretas being an interpolation in Paul

Post by Giuseppe »

gryan wrote: Mon Aug 09, 2021 12:02 amthis revelation happened soon after departing Damascus to escape arrest, thus, in Paul's mind, the incident of escaping Damascus is the immediate chronological prelude to the Third Heaven ascent.
The hallucination/revelation causes the conversion, and the conversion causes the persecution, and the persecution would cause the escape from Damascus.

At contrary, you assume that Paul was persecuted in Damascus even before his hallucination and conversion. Why?
gryan
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Re: Schmiedel's case for Aretas being an interpolation in Paul

Post by gryan »

Giuseppe wrote: Mon Aug 09, 2021 12:07 am
gryan wrote: Mon Aug 09, 2021 12:02 amthis revelation happened soon after departing Damascus to escape arrest, thus, in Paul's mind, the incident of escaping Damascus is the immediate chronological prelude to the Third Heaven ascent.
The hallucination/revelation causes the conversion, and the conversion causes the persecution, and the persecution would cause the escape from Damascus.

At contrary, you assume that Paul was persecuted in Damascus even before his hallucination and conversion. Why?

Yes, I think Paul/Saul had a charisma and a knack for causing public disorder even before his conversion. I don't think the civil authorities were religiously motivated; rather, I think they were doing what civil authorities do--trying to keep some sense of public order and peace. This is speculative, but based on Paul's claim in Gal, maybe the disorder resulted from his zeal for the law and his effort to "destroy" an emerging "assembly"-- a Messianic Jewish movement that included godfearing Gentiles. When he returned to Damascus after a brief journey to "Arabia", he was able to stay there for around 3 years only because he had switched sides and so was no longer causing the kind of public disorder that had gotten him kicked out.
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