Saul ⟶ Paul in 1 Samuel 9:21

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Giuseppe
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Saul ⟶ Paul in 1 Samuel 9:21

Post by Giuseppe »

1 Samuel 9:21
Saul answered, “But am I not a Benjamite, from the smallest tribe of Israel, and is not my clan the least of all the clans of the tribe of Benjamin? Why do you say such a thing to me?”

So, the idea of Paul is found in nuce inside the idea itself of Saul.

Now Dubourg finds a curious coincidence in the immediate context of the passage above:

17 When Samuel caught sight of Saul, the Lord said to him, “This is the man I spoke to you about; he will govern my people.”

18 Saul approached Samuel in the gateway and asked, “Would you please tell me where the seer’s house is?”

19 “I am the seer,” Samuel replied. “Go up ahead of me to the high place, for today you are to eat with me, and in the morning I will send you on your way and will tell you all that is in your heart. 20 As for the donkeys you lost three days ago, do not worry about them; they have been found. And to whom is all the desire of Israel turned, if not to you and your whole family line?

21 Saul answered, “But am I not a Benjamite, from the smallest tribe of Israel, and is not my clan the least of all the clans of the tribe of Benjamin? Why do you say such a thing to me?”

in other terms, only after that Samuel reveals his intentions for Saul — the rule on all Israel (verse 20) — and only immediately after, well two references to 'PAULUS' ("the least", "the smallest") appear in verse 21.

Little 'coincidence': In Acts, Saul becomes Paul only after his conversion.

I fear now that Dubourg has the strongest argument.

How can you reasonably still argue for a historical Paul, having read this post?
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Giuseppe
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Re: Saul ⟶ Paul in 1 Samuel 9:21

Post by Giuseppe »

:o :shock:

1 Samuel 15:17:

Samuel told him [=Saul] “Although you were once small in your own eyes, did you not become the head of the tribes of Israel? The LORD anointed you king over Israel.

...Gematria doesn't even serve, here, to argue against the historicity of Paul the Apostle...
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maryhelena
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Re: Saul ⟶ Paul in 1 Samuel 9:21

Post by maryhelena »

Giuseppe wrote: Tue Aug 17, 2021 5:22 am 1 Samuel 9:21
Saul answered, “But am I not a Benjamite, from the smallest tribe of Israel, and is not my clan the least of all the clans of the tribe of Benjamin? Why do you say such a thing to me?”

So, the idea of Paul is found in nuce inside the idea itself of Saul.

Now Dubourg finds a curious coincidence in the immediate context of the passage above:

17 When Samuel caught sight of Saul, the Lord said to him, “This is the man I spoke to you about; he will govern my people.”

18 Saul approached Samuel in the gateway and asked, “Would you please tell me where the seer’s house is?”

19 “I am the seer,” Samuel replied. “Go up ahead of me to the high place, for today you are to eat with me, and in the morning I will send you on your way and will tell you all that is in your heart. 20 As for the donkeys you lost three days ago, do not worry about them; they have been found. And to whom is all the desire of Israel turned, if not to you and your whole family line?

21 Saul answered, “But am I not a Benjamite, from the smallest tribe of Israel, and is not my clan the least of all the clans of the tribe of Benjamin? Why do you say such a thing to me?”

in other terms, only after that Samuel reveals his intentions for Saul — the rule on all Israel (verse 20) — and only immediately after, well two references to 'PAULUS' ("the least", "the smallest") appear in verse 21.

Little 'coincidence': In Acts, Saul becomes Paul only after his conversion.

I fear now that Dubourg has the strongest argument.

How can you reasonably still argue for a historical Paul, having read this post?
Interesting.... 😁

As is Paul's escape over the wall in Damascus..... Like the spies in Jericho before the conquest of the promised land...... Paul takes the road to the spiritual land.... The philosophical land of neither Jew nor Greek.
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Jax
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Re: Saul ⟶ Paul in 1 Samuel 9:21

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I would say that the writer of the fictional Acts was up on his OT.
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Giuseppe
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Re: Saul ⟶ Paul in 1 Samuel 9:21

Post by Giuseppe »

Jax wrote: Tue Aug 17, 2021 10:01 am I would say that the writer of the fictional Acts was up on his OT.
can you be more precise, please ?

Do you think that a Paul named Paul existed before Acts talks about a Paul also named Saul ?
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Jax
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Re: Saul ⟶ Paul in 1 Samuel 9:21

Post by Jax »

Giuseppe wrote: Tue Aug 17, 2021 10:07 am
Jax wrote: Tue Aug 17, 2021 10:01 am I would say that the writer of the fictional Acts was up on his OT.
can you be more precise, please ?

Do you think that a Paul named Paul existed before Acts talks about a Paul also named Saul ?
Correct. The Saul thing is just a creation of the writer of Acts. Just like everything else in the story.
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Giuseppe
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Re: Saul ⟶ Paul in 1 Samuel 9:21

Post by Giuseppe »

Jax wrote: Tue Aug 17, 2021 10:01 am Correct. The Saul thing is just a creation of the writer of Acts. Just like everything else in the story.
ok, but Dubourg is saying that Paul couldn't be called Paul independently from his being called Saul via midrash from the biblical Saul. The name "Paul" for Paul is derived midrashically from OT Saul by the same person (=the author of Acts) who equated Paul with Saul.

Otherwise there would be too much divine coincidence, here.
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Jax
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Re: Saul ⟶ Paul in 1 Samuel 9:21

Post by Jax »

Giuseppe wrote: Tue Aug 17, 2021 10:35 am
Jax wrote: Tue Aug 17, 2021 10:01 am Correct. The Saul thing is just a creation of the writer of Acts. Just like everything else in the story.
ok, but Dubourg is saying that Paul couldn't be called Paul independently from his being called Saul via midrash from the biblical Saul. The name "Paul" for Paul is derived midrashically from OT Saul by the same person (=the author of Acts) who equated Paul with Saul.

Otherwise there would be too much divine coincidence, here.
Why couldn't Paulos be a nickname like Petros obviously is?
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Giuseppe
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Re: Saul ⟶ Paul in 1 Samuel 9:21

Post by Giuseppe »

Jax wrote: Tue Aug 17, 2021 11:32 am Why couldn't Paulos be a nickname like Petros obviously is?
Because in that case there would be the divine coincidence of having, entirely independently, in 1 Samuel 21:9 and 15:17 (quoted above), just the occurrence of 'the least' (latin: Paulus) referred to the biblical Saul (and his clan), the same Saul from which the propagandist of Acts derives midrashically the legend of Paul/Saul persecutor.
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Jax
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Re: Saul ⟶ Paul in 1 Samuel 9:21

Post by Jax »

Why doesn't Paulos ever refer to himself as Saul then? Even when he is making a point of his Jewish heritage?
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