It is more likely that the author of Acts knew of "Paul" through his letters, Marcionism, etc, and when he sought to claim him for his "Judaizing" faith he sought some idea from the OT characters and that's when it occurred to him that "small" (the meaning of Paul's name) is found prominently in the Saul narrative. That gave him the idea of creating a "Saul" character who was converted into the Small/Paul character. But the Paul character was there first. The Saul "midrash" was added to him because of the "small" references pointed towards the Saul figure as his pre-conversion persona.
Saul ⟶ Paul in 1 Samuel 9:21
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neilgodfrey
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Re: Saul ⟶ Paul in 1 Samuel 9:21
Re: Saul ⟶ Paul in 1 Samuel 9:21
Neil, are you sure?neilgodfrey wrote: ↑Tue Aug 17, 2021 5:07 pmIt is more likely that the author of Acts knew of "Paul" through his letters, Marcionism, etc, and when he sought to claim him for his "Judaizing" faith he sought some idea from the OT characters and that's when it occurred to him that "small" (the meaning of Paul's name) is found prominently in the Saul narrative. That gave him the idea of creating a "Saul" character who was converted into the Small/Paul character. But the Paul character was there first. The Saul "midrash" was added to him because of the "small" references pointed towards the Saul figure as his pre-conversion persona.
What movent is more probable in the mind of the author of Acts:
- 1: "I see that the marcionites adore a guy named Paul. To judaize him, I go to search in the OT uniquely for a guy named "least" and so I find Saul, who coincidentially is both a figure of persecutor and precursor of David. Hence, I equate Paul and Saul".
- 2: "I want to introduce an example of ideal Christian apostle among the gentiles, one who is a moderate gentilizer and not a radical gentilizer, in order to appeal to him against marcionites. I go to search for a figure of persecutor and precursor in the OT and so I find a Saul; then I find, as a marginal detail, that Saul is called "the least", hence I invent Saul/Paul."
Re: Saul ⟶ Paul in 1 Samuel 9:21
From the other hand, as you seem to assume, there could be a Marcionite interest around the name Paul.
So Detering:
(The Falsified Paul, p. 145)
In this sense, it is perfectly conceivable that the idea of "smallness" has imposed before the choice of the name "Paul" for the ideal marcionite apostle, then the choice of the name "Saul" in virtue of king Saul being called "least" in 1 Samuel.
In both the case, hardly a mere coincidence, that the historical original author was called "Paul".
So Detering:
Moreover, that the name Paul could already be conceived in a figurative sense by the writer of the Pauline letters can be clearly seen in 1 Cor 15:9, where “Paul” speaks of himself as the last and the smallest, like a “miscarriage” as it were. B. Bauer correctly commented about this: “He is the last, the unexpected, the conclusion, the dear nestling. Even his Latin name, Paul, expresses smallness, which stands in contrast to the majesty to which he is elevated by grace in the preceding passages of the letter.”
(The Falsified Paul, p. 145)
In this sense, it is perfectly conceivable that the idea of "smallness" has imposed before the choice of the name "Paul" for the ideal marcionite apostle, then the choice of the name "Saul" in virtue of king Saul being called "least" in 1 Samuel.
In both the case, hardly a mere coincidence, that the historical original author was called "Paul".
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maryhelena
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Re: Saul ⟶ Paul in 1 Samuel 9:21
Way to go Giuseppe.Giuseppe wrote: ↑Tue Aug 17, 2021 8:34 pmNeil, are you sure?neilgodfrey wrote: ↑Tue Aug 17, 2021 5:07 pmIt is more likely that the author of Acts knew of "Paul" through his letters, Marcionism, etc, and when he sought to claim him for his "Judaizing" faith he sought some idea from the OT characters and that's when it occurred to him that "small" (the meaning of Paul's name) is found prominently in the Saul narrative. That gave him the idea of creating a "Saul" character who was converted into the Small/Paul character. But the Paul character was there first. The Saul "midrash" was added to him because of the "small" references pointed towards the Saul figure as his pre-conversion persona.
What movent is more probable in the mind of the author of Acts:
- 1: "I see that the marcionites adore a guy named Paul. To judaize him, I go to search in the OT uniquely for a guy named "least" and so I find Saul, who coincidentially is both a figure of persecutor and precursor of David. Hence, I equate Paul and Saul".
It seems to me that 2 is more probable than 1.
- 2: "I want to introduce an example of ideal Christian apostle among the gentiles, one who is a moderate gentilizer and not a radical gentilizer, in order to appeal to him against marcionites. I go to search for a figure of persecutor and precursor in the OT and so I find a Saul; then I find, as a marginal detail, that Saul is called "the least", hence I invent Saul/Paul."
Thomas Brodie: Beyond the Quest for the Historical Jesus.
PAUL: THE PENNY FINALLY DROPS
Historicized fiction.
A mass of data had suddenly fallen into place.
What hit me was that the entire narrative regarding Paul, everything the
thirteen epistles say about him or imply-about his life, his work and travels,
his character, his sending and receiving of letters, his readers and his
relationship to them-all of that was historicized fiction. It was fiction,
meaning that the figure of Paul was a work of imagination, but this figure had
been historicized-presented in a way that made it look like history, history like,
'fiction made to resemble the uncertainties of life in history'
......
So- and this reality took time to sink in-the figure of Paul joined the
ranks of so many other figures from the older part of the Bible, figures who,
despite the historical details surrounding them, were literary, figures of the
imagination.
PAUL: THE PENNY FINALLY DROPS
Historicized fiction.
A mass of data had suddenly fallen into place.
What hit me was that the entire narrative regarding Paul, everything the
thirteen epistles say about him or imply-about his life, his work and travels,
his character, his sending and receiving of letters, his readers and his
relationship to them-all of that was historicized fiction. It was fiction,
meaning that the figure of Paul was a work of imagination, but this figure had
been historicized-presented in a way that made it look like history, history like,
'fiction made to resemble the uncertainties of life in history'
......
So- and this reality took time to sink in-the figure of Paul joined the
ranks of so many other figures from the older part of the Bible, figures who,
despite the historical details surrounding them, were literary, figures of the
imagination.
Re: Saul ⟶ Paul in 1 Samuel 9:21
be serious, maryhelena, the question is very complex,
For what I know, Brodie doesn't address the question. Hence, how can you cite him?
- if Paul existed independently as Paul,
- if Marcion invented the name "Paul" for theological reason,
- or if Acts invented the name "Paul" for midrash from 1 Samuel.
For what I know, Brodie doesn't address the question. Hence, how can you cite him?
Re: Saul ⟶ Paul in 1 Samuel 9:21
the point is that also the passage from Saul to Paul appears to be derived midrashically and not as effect of a forced addition by the propagandist of Acts.neilgodfrey wrote: ↑Tue Aug 17, 2021 5:07 pm But the Paul character was there first. The Saul "midrash" was added to him because of the "small" references pointed towards the Saul figure as his pre-conversion persona.
About this precise point, Dubourg writes:
I infer that Saul the Little, ŜʼWL HQTN, was found in the first book of Samuel many ages before our era...
And he was not found in it all at once: he was found in it in two stages. For if you have 1 Samuel 9 in front of you, you will see that Saul only proclaims himself (and highly!) as a least one after having been foretold by the prophet Samuel as the king - the first king - of Israel.
At the beginning of the chapter he is only Saul; and it is only when he arrives in verse 21, following his meeting with the prophet-seer, that he takes on the title of QTN, "little one".
Coincidentally, the apostle Paul (Saul), in the New Testament narratives, is first called Saul; and it is only after his "vision" and his "conversion" on the road to Damascus that he takes on the nickname of Paulos-Paulus-Paul/"little one".
And he was not found in it all at once: he was found in it in two stages. For if you have 1 Samuel 9 in front of you, you will see that Saul only proclaims himself (and highly!) as a least one after having been foretold by the prophet Samuel as the king - the first king - of Israel.
At the beginning of the chapter he is only Saul; and it is only when he arrives in verse 21, following his meeting with the prophet-seer, that he takes on the title of QTN, "little one".
Coincidentally, the apostle Paul (Saul), in the New Testament narratives, is first called Saul; and it is only after his "vision" and his "conversion" on the road to Damascus that he takes on the nickname of Paulos-Paulus-Paul/"little one".
(Invention de Jésus, vol. II, p. 84)
Re: Saul ⟶ Paul in 1 Samuel 9:21
What is interesting is also Genesis 3:15
About the "offspring of the serpent", it is very curious that a midrash from it is just: Saul!
https://assets.website-files.com/5e7434 ... sau%20.pdf
Hence, if now Marcion adores the Serpent, the Gnostic symbol of the Unknown God who reveals and not redeems, it is strongly expected that the Marcionite Apostle, Paul, is converted midrashically, just as Saul was, in the “Seed of the Serpent” of Gen 3:15.
A question for Neil: is very possible that in all the world, only Dubourg has realized first that 'the least' (in reference to Paul/Saul list of analogies) appears in 1 Samuel ?
Could a similar detail - so highly suggestive - be escaped to great scholars of Acts ?
And I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your offspring and hers; he will crush your head, and you will strike his heel.”
About the "offspring of the serpent", it is very curious that a midrash from it is just: Saul!
In this article I propose that in 1 Samuel the character Saul is slowly and subtly typecast as the “Seed of the Serpent” of Gen 3:15. While initially Saul makes a good start of being king, he slowly but surely drifts into comparability with Cain and then with Esau. There is no single defining passage that does this outright, but it is found in the cumulative effect ofseveral (seemingly) minor details throughout the narrative, reaching a startling—though not entirely unpredictable—finale in 31:8-10. Over against Saul, of course, stands David who is presented as the “Seed of the Woman” through whom the Lord regularly brings “salvation” for his people.
https://assets.website-files.com/5e7434 ... sau%20.pdf
Hence, if now Marcion adores the Serpent, the Gnostic symbol of the Unknown God who reveals and not redeems, it is strongly expected that the Marcionite Apostle, Paul, is converted midrashically, just as Saul was, in the “Seed of the Serpent” of Gen 3:15.
A question for Neil: is very possible that in all the world, only Dubourg has realized first that 'the least' (in reference to Paul/Saul list of analogies) appears in 1 Samuel ?
Could a similar detail - so highly suggestive - be escaped to great scholars of Acts ?
Re: Saul ⟶ Paul in 1 Samuel 9:21
By doing a rapid search on Internet, I have found the answer:
http://www.learnthebible.org/king-saul- ... pared.html
(my bold)
The link is to a Christian (probably apologist) site, therefore it was not a Dubourg's finding at all.
http://www.learnthebible.org/king-saul- ... pared.html
King Saul and Saul of Tarsus Compared
While doing a study on the life of the apostle Paul, I began to wonder if he was actually named Saul after the 1st king of Israel. I began to make comparisons between the two and found several things that they had in common. The name Saul means "desired" while the name Paul means "little". It's interesting to think that Paul started off as Saul, or the one to be desired, but when God got a hold of him, he became Paul the little one. Sounds like the words of John the Baptist when he said of Christ, "He must increase, but I must decrease." John 3:30
While doing a study on the life of the apostle Paul, I began to wonder if he was actually named Saul after the 1st king of Israel. I began to make comparisons between the two and found several things that they had in common. The name Saul means "desired" while the name Paul means "little". It's interesting to think that Paul started off as Saul, or the one to be desired, but when God got a hold of him, he became Paul the little one. Sounds like the words of John the Baptist when he said of Christ, "He must increase, but I must decrease." John 3:30
- Both Benjamites
King Saul (1 Samuel 9:21)
Saul of Tarsus (Philippians 3:5)
- Both Transitional Men
King Saul - Transitional man from the judges to the kings
Saul of Tarsus - Transitional man from Jew to Gentile
- Both Were the Least
King Saul said that his family was the least and that he didn't feel worthy to be king (1Samuel 9:21)
Saul of Tarsus said he was the least of the apostles and not meet to be called an apostle (1 Corinthians 15:9)
- Both Excelled
King Saul excelled beyond those surrounding him (1 Samuel 9:2)
Saul of Tarsus was above many of his equals (Galatians 1:14)
- Both Fell on Their Face Before a Prophet
King Saul fell on his face before a dead prophet (1 Samuel 28:14)
Saul of Tarsus fell on his face before Jesus Christ (Acts 9:4-5)
- Both Asked the Prophet What They Should Do
King Saul asked the prophet what he should do (1 Samuel 28:15)
Saul of Tarsus asked Jesus, what will you have me to do (Acts 9:6)
- Both Wanted Followers of Their Enemy Dead
King Saul attempted to kill Jonathan because he loved David (1 Samuel 20:33)
Saul of Tarsus consented to stone Stephen because of his love for Jesus Christ (Acts 7:58, Acts 8:1)
- Both Persecuted Their Enemy
King Saul persecuted king David (1 Samuel 18:11)
Saul of Tarsus persecuted the Lord Jesus Christ (Acts 9:4)
(my bold)
The link is to a Christian (probably apologist) site, therefore it was not a Dubourg's finding at all.
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maryhelena
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- Location: England
Re: Saul ⟶ Paul in 1 Samuel 9:21
Indeed - and Brodie is a very serious scholar...
I have the Brodie book not a pdf version so I'm not going to spend my day typing.......
- if Paul existed independently as Paul,
- if Marcion invented the name "Paul" for theological reason,
I would be interested to hear the various views about this point.
- or if Acts invented the name "Paul" for midrash from 1 Samuel.
For what I know, Brodie doesn't address the question. Hence, how can you cite him?
However, here are the headings regarding Paul:
Paul as a Literary Figure: Direct Evidence - from the Epistles Themselves.
Genre/form/kind/nature.
Autobiographical passages
References about readers/communities.
References to received traditions.
References to writings from himself and his readers.
Travels.
Occupation as tent-maker.
Paul as a Literary Figure: Circumstantial Evidence, from Biblical Studies as a Whole.
The slow acceptance of attributed authorship.
Growing awareness of the literary nature of the Hebrew Bible.
Growing awareness of the literary nature of the New Testament.
Incipient awareness of the continuity between the Old Testament and the New Testament.
Thomas Brodie: Beyond the Quest for the Historical Jesus
The idea that Paul was a literary figure did not remove the possibility that behind the epistles lay one outstanding historical figure who was central to the inspiring of the epistles, but that is not the figure whom the epistles portray. Under that person's inspiration - or the inspirations of that person plus co-workers - the epistles protray a single individual, Paul, who incorporates in himself and in his teaching a distillation of the age-long drama of God's work on earth.
<snip>
I began to check if the idea of Paul as a non-historical figure was new, and had to go no further than an article in the Jerome Biblical Commentary (1968:41.7) - a John Kselman article......to find that 'B)runo) Bauer (1809-1882 removed what historical foundation (D) Strauss had allowed and left only myth, concluding Jesus and Paul were non-historical literary fictions'.
Searching further I found that Bauer's stance was largely followed by 'Dutch, German, French and Anglo-Saxon scholars at the end of the nineteenth century and the beginning of the twentieth century'. (Kummel 1972:447) but the methods used by thse scholars were very underdeveloped and their proposals faded.
The idea that Paul was a literary figure did not remove the possibility that behind the epistles lay one outstanding historical figure who was central to the inspiring of the epistles, but that is not the figure whom the epistles portray. Under that person's inspiration - or the inspirations of that person plus co-workers - the epistles protray a single individual, Paul, who incorporates in himself and in his teaching a distillation of the age-long drama of God's work on earth.
<snip>
I began to check if the idea of Paul as a non-historical figure was new, and had to go no further than an article in the Jerome Biblical Commentary (1968:41.7) - a John Kselman article......to find that 'B)runo) Bauer (1809-1882 removed what historical foundation (D) Strauss had allowed and left only myth, concluding Jesus and Paul were non-historical literary fictions'.
Searching further I found that Bauer's stance was largely followed by 'Dutch, German, French and Anglo-Saxon scholars at the end of the nineteenth century and the beginning of the twentieth century'. (Kummel 1972:447) but the methods used by thse scholars were very underdeveloped and their proposals faded.
How about Richard Pervo on Paul and Jesus:
Table 6.1: Jesus and Paul: Some Examples (Page 107) The Mystery of Acts: Richard Pervo
| Jesus | Paul |
| 1. "Passion Predictions" | 1. "Passion Predictions" |
| Luke 9:22 | Acts 20:23-25 |
| Luke 9:34 | Acts 21:4 |
| Luke 18:31 | Acts 21:11-13 |
| 2. Farewell Address | 2. Farewell Address[/td] |
| Luke 22:14-38 | Acts 20:17-35 |
| 3. Resurrection: Sadducees Oppose[/td] | 3. Resurrection: Sadducees Oppose |
| Luke 20:27-39 | Acts 23:6-10 |
| 4. Staff of High Priest Slap Jesus | 4. Staff of High Priest Slap Paul |
| Luke 22:63-64 | Acts 23:1-2 |
| 5. Four "Trial" of Jesus[/td] | 5. Four "Trials" of Paul[/td] |
| A. Sanhedrin: Luke 22:66-71 | A. Sanhedrin: Acts 22:30-23:10 |
| B. Roman Governor (Pilate) Luke 23:1-5 | B. Roman Governor (Felix) 24:1-22 |
| C. Herodian King (Antipas) Luke 23:6-12 | C. Herodian King (Agrippa) 26 |
| D. Roman Governor (Pilate) Luke 23:13-25 | D. Roman Governor (Festus) 25:6-12 |
| 6. Declarations of Innocence[/td] | 6. Declarations of Innocence[/td] |
| Pilate: Luke 23:14 (cf.23:4,22) | Lysias (Tribune) Acts 23:29 |
| Herod: Luke 23:14 | Festus: Acts 25:25 |
| Centurian: Luke 23:47 | Agrippa: Acts 26:31 |
| 7. Mob Demands Execution[/td] | 7. Mob Demands Execution[/td] |
| Luke 23:18 | Acts 22:22 |
Re: Saul ⟶ Paul in 1 Samuel 9:21
It seems therefore that Neil is correct: the idea of 'smallness' has ruled the author of Acts from the beginning, and accordingly he found, by coincidence, a 'least' in the OT Saul. It is a FACT.
What is a POSSIBILITY: that the same idea of 'smallness' had ruled Marcion from the beginning, by moving him to call 'Paul' the author of the epistles collected by him (corollary: Paul never existed).
In both the cases, a Paul existed already before Acts introduced Saul.
What is a POSSIBILITY: that the same idea of 'smallness' had ruled Marcion from the beginning, by moving him to call 'Paul' the author of the epistles collected by him (corollary: Paul never existed).
In both the cases, a Paul existed already before Acts introduced Saul.