Genesis of Mary by Le Maguer

Discussion about the New Testament, apocrypha, gnostics, church fathers, Christian origins, historical Jesus or otherwise, etc.
Giuseppe
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Re: Genesis of Mary by Le Maguer

Post by Giuseppe »

Mary of Cleopas, 'Cleopas' is derived from kalaph KLP: to peel.

Hence, she is the "woman of the bald".

Numbers 16:1

Korah son of Izhar, the son of Kohath, the son of Levi, and certain Reubenites—Dathan and Abiram, sons of Eliab, and On son of Peleth—became insolent

She is therefore another Mary rebel against God.

In the Toledot Yeshu, when Myriam escapes to not be seen, she changes name in qarahah, the "bald woman".
Giuseppe
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Re: Genesis of Mary by Le Maguer

Post by Giuseppe »

A possibility is that the proliferation of Mary in the epilogue of the Gospels is an answer against the Toledot Yeschu, a way to say:

"The Mary who is accused to be Mary x by Toledot Yeschu is really a distinct Mary from the Mary mother of Jesus".
yakovzutolmai
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Re: Genesis of Mary by Le Maguer

Post by yakovzutolmai »

Giuseppe wrote: Tue Aug 24, 2021 7:53 am Interesting, your Theudas/"Joshua" may be the doubting Thomas, made "doubting" to neutralize in advance the hearsay about a rival Christ ("twin" of the catholic Christ) being the true risen Christ.
No, I think they identified King Bazeus as the incarnation of Joseph, and Theudas was preaching to "Joshua cultists" (not that it was a cult, but rather a commonly understood folk tradition among Israelites and remnant of the basic elements of Canaanite religion) telling them that his deceased father is to be identified as this spirit, in the form of the secret Adam revealed.

I think the Alexandrian Jews were mocking Theudas as if he was the new Joshua, and this confused later Christians into identifying Theudas as Jesus.

It's not an essential element of my hypothesis, but I think Mariamne Boethus may have been briefly married to Herod Archeleus, leading to a conflict with Bazeus (who was Zamaris and had masqueraded as her brother) that coincided with a tax dispute (Judas of Gamala). I can imagine how Mariamne was rescued from "Mariamne's Tower" (different Mary), and these events were later paralleled to the mythological allegories deliberately by the cult. I would identify 6 AD as when Bazeus goes to the Temple of Jerusalem, and later it is said this is when he ascends to heaven to be told the purpose of the temple is fulfilled. Looking into Mohammed's activities in Jerusalem as a memory of early Christianity.

The original Christ would look more like Mohammed in Jerusalem than Jesus on the cross. It's the anticipation of the advent of this spirit that laid the groundwork for these Christian movements. I would say that Theudas and James and their community believed the advent had occurred. Not in "Jesus of Nazareth".

It is Theudas who has a ministry in Galilee and at Jordan.

I think Thomas was "Addai" and was literally the twin of Theudas. The reason why James and Simon are Theudas's successors in the Holy Land is because Addai inherits the throne of Adiabene after Theudas's death.

Because Theudas is associated with Jesus, Addai becomes Didymus. Not merely for being his twin, but because of the importance of the twins as an esoteric motif.

The doubting I think had nothing to do with the original story.
yakovzutolmai
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Re: Genesis of Mary by Le Maguer

Post by yakovzutolmai »

Giuseppe wrote: Tue Aug 24, 2021 9:55 am Mary of Cleopas, 'Cleopas' is derived from kalaph KLP: to peel.

Hence, she is the "woman of the bald".

Numbers 16:1

Korah son of Izhar, the son of Kohath, the son of Levi, and certain Reubenites—Dathan and Abiram, sons of Eliab, and On son of Peleth—became insolent

She is therefore another Mary rebel against God.

In the Toledot Yeshu, when Myriam escapes to not be seen, she changes name in qarahah, the "bald woman".
Maybe a misattribution of Cleopas. It could be from Cleopatros or Cantheras.
yakovzutolmai
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Re: Genesis of Mary by Le Maguer

Post by yakovzutolmai »

Giuseppe wrote: Tue Aug 24, 2021 9:05 am Jesus/Joshua exorcized 7 demons from Mary of Magdala.

"Mary" personifies the land of Israel.

Biblical Joshua expelled from the Promised Land precisely 7 nations.
Check out this from Japanese mythology:
(https://asianethnology.org/downloads/ae/pdf/a318.pdf)
In ancient times, before
the worship of Amaterasu became popular, there is evidence that solar
myths other than the myth of Amaterasu were prevalent among the people. In a folk tale, it is told that once seven suns appeared at the same
time, and the people were very uncomfortable in the heat. To remedy
the situation, a giant, Amanojaku, shot down all but one of the suns
with bow and arrow.3 This tale has parallels among the Miaos, Taiwan
aboriginies, and in Chinese mythology. According to one version transmitted by the words of a rice planting folksong from Izumo, Sanbai, the
deity of the rice field, was born of Father Sun and Mother Dragon.
I got this from thinking Amaterasu is treated similarly to Hathor, in what cannot be a classical era syncretism:
Amaterasu's brother, the storm god Susano'o, had vandalized her rice fields, threw a flayed horse at her loom, and brutally killed one of her maidens due to a quarrel between them. In turn, Amaterasu became furious with him and retreated into the Heavenly Rock Cave, Amano-Iwato. The world, without the illumination of the sun, became dark and the gods could not lure Amaterasu out of her hiding place.

Uzume dancing to lure out Amaterasu.
The clever Uzume overturned a tub near the cave entrance and began to dance on it, tearing off her clothing in front of the other deities. They considered this so comical that they laughed heartily at the sight.[5] This dance is said to have founded the Japanese ritual dance, Kagura.[6]

Uzume had hung a bronze mirror and a beautiful jewel of polished jade. Amaterasu heard them, and peered out to see what the commotion was about. When she opened the cave, she saw the jewel and her glorious reflection in a mirror which Uzume had placed on a tree, and slowly came out from her clever hiding spot.

At that moment, the god Ame-no-Tajikarawo-no-mikoto dashed forth and closed the cave behind her, refusing to budge so that she could no longer retreat. Another god tied a magic shimenawa across the entrance.[7] The deities Ame-no-Koyane-no-mikoto and Ame-no-Futodama-no-mikoto then asked Amaterasu to rejoin the divine. She agreed, and light was restored to the earth.
Hathor:
These aspects of Hathor were linked with the myth of the Eye of Ra. The Eye was pacified by beer in the story of the Destruction of Mankind. In some versions of the Distant Goddess myth, the wandering Eye's wildness abated when she was appeased with products of civilization like music, dance, and wine. The water of the annual flooding of the Nile, colored red by sediment, was likened to wine, and to the red-dyed beer in the Destruction of Mankind. Festivals during the inundation therefore incorporated drink, music, and dance as a way to appease the returning goddess.[33] A text from the Temple of Edfu says of Hathor, "the gods play the sistrum for her, the goddesses dance for her to dispel her bad temper."[34] A hymn to the goddess Raet-Tawy as a form of Hathor at the temple of Medamud describes the Festival of Drunkenness as part of her mythic return to Egypt.[35] Women carry bouquets of flowers, drunken revelers play drums, and people and animals from foreign lands dance for her as she enters the temple's festival booth. The noise of the celebration drives away hostile powers and ensures the goddess will remain in her joyful form as she awaits the male god of the temple, her mythological consort Montu, whose son she will bear
Susanoo is her brother and this is his description:
he is a multifaceted deity with contradictory characteristics (both good and bad), being portrayed in various stories either as a wild, impetuous god associated with the sea and storms, as a heroic figure who killed a monstrous serpent, or as a local deity linked with the harvest and agriculture. Syncretic beliefs that arose after the introduction of Buddhism to Japan also saw Susanoo becoming conflated with deities of pestilence and disease.
Just before reading this I had come to conclude that Hadad and Yam are the same deity, and that Yam is a form of Hadad's madness. Also that Yam is called Judge Nahar which made me realize he is being linked to Osiris. Thus, I have interpreted Osiris and Set as the same god.

These are the divine twins, more Jekyll and Hyde than Janus. And somehow even the Austronesian peoples were aware of a similar myth.

Their memory of it explains that the consort of the solar deity was the dragon or serpent. The conquest of the serpent is, essentially, the courtship between the solar deity and the sky goddess.
Giuseppe
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Re: Genesis of Mary by Le Maguer

Post by Giuseppe »

yakovzutolmai wrote: Tue Aug 24, 2021 12:55 pm
Giuseppe wrote: Tue Aug 24, 2021 7:53 am Interesting, your Theudas/"Joshua" may be the doubting Thomas, made "doubting" to neutralize in advance the hearsay about a rival Christ ("twin" of the catholic Christ) being the true risen Christ.
No, I think they identified King Bazeus as the incarnation of Joseph, and Theudas was preaching to "Joshua cultists"
What do you think about Theudas considered by Valentinus a person known by the (Valentinian) Paul?

Someone has argued that for Paul, Theudas was behind his Jesus, precisely in virtue of this Valentinus's claim.
yakovzutolmai
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Re: Genesis of Mary by Le Maguer

Post by yakovzutolmai »

Giuseppe wrote: Tue Aug 24, 2021 11:36 pm What do you think about Theudas considered by Valentinus a person known by the (Valentinian) Paul?
I think Valentinus was lying, but his mention of Theudas was an appeal to authority that would have meant something to people as late as 135 AD.

Let me reframe this. I think Bazeus was "The Prophet Elchasai". El Chi being a polyglottal "The God Christ" (perhaps, if it helps to think of it that way). Theudas was given credit for popularizing Elchasai, however, the movement probably spread during the 50s under James and Simon which culminated with the execution of James and then the Jewish Revolt.

Another way to think of Elchasai is that he is the basis for Mohammed (the Jerusalem version), rather than being the basis for the man who died at Golgotha and preached in Galilee.

So, Theudas is credited as the founder of this religious system - why Valentinus claims him as a teacher. However, the religion's Christ is Elchasai, and Theudas preached about Elchasai.

Notice that Pauline Christianity talks about Banas, not Theudas.
davidmartin
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Re: Genesis of Mary by Le Maguer

Post by davidmartin »

yakovzutolmai wrote: Thu Aug 26, 2021 9:30 am
Giuseppe wrote: Tue Aug 24, 2021 11:36 pm What do you think about Theudas considered by Valentinus a person known by the (Valentinian) Paul?
I think Valentinus was lying, but his mention of Theudas was an appeal to authority that would have meant something to people as late as 135 AD.

Let me reframe this. I think Bazeus was "The Prophet Elchasai". El Chi being a polyglottal "The God Christ" (perhaps, if it helps to think of it that way). Theudas was given credit for popularizing Elchasai, however, the movement probably spread during the 50s under James and Simon which culminated with the execution of James and then the Jewish Revolt.

Another way to think of Elchasai is that he is the basis for Mohammed (the Jerusalem version), rather than being the basis for the man who died at Golgotha and preached in Galilee.

So, Theudas is credited as the founder of this religious system - why Valentinus claims him as a teacher. However, the religion's Christ is Elchasai, and Theudas preached about Elchasai.

Notice that Pauline Christianity talks about Banas, not Theudas.
maybe...
According to the surviving fragments of the work Exposition of the Sayings of the Lord of the Apostolic Father Papias of Hierapolis, who lived c. 70–163 AD, Cleophas and Alphaeus are the same person: "Mary the wife of Cleophas or Alphaeus, who was the mother of James the bishop and apostle, and of Simon and Thaddeus, and of one Joseph"[15] According to the Anglican theologian J.B. Lightfoot this fragment quoted above is spurious.[16][17]

The Catholic Encyclopedia suggests that etymologically, the names Clopas and Alphaeus are different, but that they could still be the same person. Other sources propose that Alphaeus, Clophas and Cleophas are variant attempts to render the Aramaic H in Aramaic Hilfai into Greek as aspirated, or K.
And Hilfai...
"This name derives from the Ancient Greek “Alpheiós / Alfeiós (Ἀλφειός)”, meaning “resourceful, changing, whitish”. Alphaios was in Greek mythology a river (the modern Alfeiós River) and river-god. Alpheius was a passionate hunter and fell in love with the nymph Arethusa [the waterer], but she fled from him to the island of Ortygia near Syracuse, and metamorphosed herself into a well, whereupon Alpheius became a river, which flowing from Peloponnesus under the sea to Ortygia, there united its waters with those of the well Arethusa"

Behind the myth there's undoubtedly a basic spiritual idea not unique to the telling hey that fits with Theudas name etymology
The case perhaps could be made Theudas was about capturing some essence of previous myth based spirituality he saw as being behind the more stately traditions and could cross cultural boundaries with ease. Paul then is copying this approach as he blends gentiles with isreal removing the distinction and law and calling it 'the two becoming one' like the river meeting the well. he just twists it i guess denying perhaps the roots as it were, since to Paul Christ is a previously hidden mystery while one might imagine a Theudas who see's Christ as basically revealed in all religions at their source, but Paul cannot be this syncretic (even though he claims everything was created through Christ!)
yakovzutolmai
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Re: Genesis of Mary by Le Maguer

Post by yakovzutolmai »

davidmartin wrote: Sat Aug 28, 2021 11:15 pm And Hilfai...
"This name derives from the Ancient Greek “Alpheiós / Alfeiós (Ἀλφειός)”, meaning “resourceful, changing, whitish”. Alphaios was in Greek mythology a river (the modern Alfeiós River) and river-god. Alpheius was a passionate hunter and fell in love with the nymph Arethusa [the waterer], but she fled from him to the island of Ortygia near Syracuse, and metamorphosed herself into a well, whereupon Alpheius became a river, which flowing from Peloponnesus under the sea to Ortygia, there united its waters with those of the well Arethusa"

Behind the myth there's undoubtedly a basic spiritual idea not unique to the telling hey that fits with Theudas name etymology
The case perhaps could be made Theudas was about capturing some essence of previous myth based spirituality he saw as being behind the more stately traditions and could cross cultural boundaries with ease. Paul then is copying this approach as he blends gentiles with isreal removing the distinction and law and calling it 'the two becoming one' like the river meeting the well. he just twists it i guess denying perhaps the roots as it were, since to Paul Christ is a previously hidden mystery while one might imagine a Theudas who see's Christ as basically revealed in all religions at their source, but Paul cannot be this syncretic (even though he claims everything was created through Christ!)

Fascinating, in another thread someone has identified the "Ieoud", only-begotten of Cronus, of Sanchuniathon as possibly a version of Adonis via the mother Arethusa.

I have a somewhat speculative theory that Cronus is actually a tripartite God (Adonis-Zeus-Cronus, in Canaan: Ieoud-Hadad-Yam) that engages in a cycle of death and rebirth, and has a bipolar character and a schizophrenic nature.

Yam is called "Judge Nahar", being a sea god that is also associated with the waters of the rivers (and the judge aspect relates him slightly to Osiris, who is another god demonstrating a cycle of death and rebirth).

So, if Alfphaios is "Judge Nahar", then he is the Phoenician Osiris, and father of the "only-begotten" associated with Hadad.

Then again, the virgin and whore symbolism of Mary also comes from Canaanite/Syrian mysticism.

Regardless, however these mythological labels were applied to existing or non-historical persons, it seems like you have demonstrated that Theudas's name may be identifying him as this same "Ieoud".
davidmartin
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Re: Genesis of Mary by Le Maguer

Post by davidmartin »

Mysticism - it does what it says on the tin!
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