Exodus 15:2
The Lord is my strength and my defense; he has become my salvation. He is my God,
A better translation:
he has become, as myself (=Israel), as salvation (=Joshua), my God
God is embodied in Israel and in Joshua.
Genesis of Mary by Le Maguer
Re: Genesis of Mary by Le Maguer
Again Le Maguer:
Exodus 15:2
A better translation:
God is embodied in Israel and in Joshua.
Exodus 15:2
A better translation:
God is embodied in Israel and in Joshua.
Re: Genesis of Mary by Le Maguer
Exodus 15:24-26
what was that "piece of wood"?
Exodus 4:2-6
24 So the people grumbled against Moses, saying, “What are we to drink?”
25 Then Moses cried out to the Lord, and the Lord showed him a piece of wood. He threw it into the water, and the water became fit to drink.
There the Lord issued a ruling and instruction for them and put them to the test. 26 He said, “If you listen carefully to the Lord your God and do what is right in his eyes, if you pay attention to his commands and keep all his decrees, I will not bring on you any of the diseases I brought on the Egyptians, for I am the Lord, who heals you.”
25 Then Moses cried out to the Lord, and the Lord showed him a piece of wood. He threw it into the water, and the water became fit to drink.
There the Lord issued a ruling and instruction for them and put them to the test. 26 He said, “If you listen carefully to the Lord your God and do what is right in his eyes, if you pay attention to his commands and keep all his decrees, I will not bring on you any of the diseases I brought on the Egyptians, for I am the Lord, who heals you.”
what was that "piece of wood"?
Exodus 4:2-6
2 Then the Lord said to him, “What is that in your hand?”
“A staff,” he replied.
3 The Lord said, “Throw it on the ground.”
Moses threw it on the ground and it became a snake, and he ran from it.
“A staff,” he replied.
3 The Lord said, “Throw it on the ground.”
Moses threw it on the ground and it became a snake, and he ran from it.
Re: Genesis of Mary by Le Maguer
Jeremiah 31:6
"watchmen" == notsrim, Nazoreans.
Not only there was never Nazaret.
There was never a sect of Nazoreans.
There will be a day when watchmen cry out on the hills of Ephraim, 'Come, let us go up to Zion, to the LORD our God.'”
"watchmen" == notsrim, Nazoreans.
Not only there was never Nazaret.
There was never a sect of Nazoreans.
Re: Genesis of Mary by Le Maguer
Jesus/Joshua exorcized 7 demons from Mary of Magdala.
"Mary" personifies the land of Israel.
Biblical Joshua expelled from the Promised Land precisely 7 nations.
"Mary" personifies the land of Israel.
Biblical Joshua expelled from the Promised Land precisely 7 nations.
Re: Genesis of Mary by Le Maguer
Re: Arimathea appears in it in place of the Hebrew ĤʼRY MWŢGiuseppe wrote: ↑Tue Aug 24, 2021 7:01 amit is evident that you don't know Dubourg.
He writes:
Arimathea appears in it in place of the Hebrew ĤʼRY MWŢ, literally "after the death (of)" — a frequent clause in the Bible and that inaugurates, in particular, the Book of Joshua, otherwise called, through the Greek, of Jesus (YHWŜᶜ): Joseph, so-called "of Arimathea", enters in reality "after the death of" Jesus-Joshua.
(Bernard Dubourg, Le invention de Jésus, t. 1, my bold)
I have not read Dubourg. This is not a method I'm familiar with, except through your posts.
So, he is arguing that the pronunciation of the Hebrew--ĤʼRY MWŢ -- gets represented in Greek as Ἀριμαθαία (pronounced ar-ee-math-ah'-ee-ah).
Last edited by gryan on Tue Aug 24, 2021 9:26 am, edited 2 times in total.
Re: Genesis of Mary by Le Maguer
Re: Genesis of Mary by Le Maguer
Now, it is interesting that
(p. 224, my translation)
For example, Panthera rapes twice Myriam. Why twice? Because "Joseph" means "to add".
For example, Jesus is made to predict Isaiah but he speaks Jeremiah.
This means that the mythicist accusation: "your Jesus never existed", was implicit in the construction itself of the Toledot Yeschu, since the need of a midrash to criticize another midrash reveals that the authors of the first knew the true nature of the latter.
The irony is that Celsus used the Toledot Yeschu as a historicist attack against a historicist gospel.
The Toledot Yeschu are first and foremost an attempt to understand the Gospels through the midrashic way. The polemic is still present there but is still based on the biblical text.
(p. 224, my translation)
For example, Panthera rapes twice Myriam. Why twice? Because "Joseph" means "to add".
For example, Jesus is made to predict Isaiah but he speaks Jeremiah.
This means that the mythicist accusation: "your Jesus never existed", was implicit in the construction itself of the Toledot Yeschu, since the need of a midrash to criticize another midrash reveals that the authors of the first knew the true nature of the latter.
The irony is that Celsus used the Toledot Yeschu as a historicist attack against a historicist gospel.
Re: Genesis of Mary by Le Maguer
Yes. And you (or he) will argue further that Myriam'aheret--"lit. another Mary--Giuseppe wrote: ↑Tue Aug 24, 2021 9:20 amJudge from yourself, by reading Joshua 1:1 in Hebrew:
’a-ḥă-rê mō-wṯ
"https://biblehub.com/hebrew/312.htm
-- is really (in terms of mystical meaning, or just common sense?) Mary "of after" with a context specific connotation of after death.
Re: Genesis of Mary by Le Maguer
surely the first.
She is a figuration of Mary mother of Jesus in opposition to Mary of Magdala who goes with her.
"Magdala" means "the superb".
The root gadel could mean also "to lenghten" (the hair), hence May of Magdala is "hairdresser", epitet for Myriam in the Toledot Yeschu.
Re: Genesis of Mary by Le Maguer
Reminds me of the characters in Pilgrim's Progress:
"Christian
Husband and father stricken by spiritual crisis. Christian is told by a messenger to leave his doomed city and begin a journey of progress toward spiritual achievement.
Evangelist
The messenger carrying the Gospel, or word of Christ, to Christian. Evangelist spurs Christian on his journey to the Celestial City.
Obstinate
A neighbor of Christian’s in the City of Destruction who refuses to accompany him.
Pliable
A neighbor of Christian’s who accompanies him for a while. After falling in the Slough of Despond, Pliable is discouraged and returns home, only to be mocked by the townsfolk.
Help
Fellow pilgrim who helps pull Christian from the Slough of Despond.
Worldly Wiseman
A reasonable and practical man whom Christian encounters early in his journey. Worldly Wiseman tries unsuccessfully to urge Christian to give up his religious foolishness and live a contented secular life.
Formalist
A traveler whom Christian meets along the wall of Salvation. With his companion Hypocrisy, Formalist sneaks over the wall, instead of following the strait and narrow as Christian did.
Hypocrisy
Formalist’s travel companion.
Discretion
One of the four mistresses of the Palace Beautiful. Discretion takes Christian in and feeds him.
Piety
One of the four mistresses of the Palace Beautiful. Piety asks Christian about his journey so far.
Prudence
One of the four mistresses of the Palace Beautiful. Prudence tries to understand Christian’s purpose in traveling to Mount Zion.
Charity
One of the four mistresses of the Palace Beautiful. Charity asks Christian why he did not bring his family, which causes him to weep.
The Interpreter
Spiritual guide who shelters Christian. The Interpreter instructs Christian in the art of reading religious meanings hidden in everyday objects and events, which he houses in his Significant Rooms.
Apollyon
Fierce monster with fish scales, bear feet, and dragon wings. Apollyon threatens Christian and fights him with sword until Christian defeats him.
Shining Ones
Three celestial creatures who clothe Christian with new garments and give him the certificate. The Shining Ones act as guardians throughout Christian’s journey.
Faithful
Fellow pilgrim from Christian’s hometown who reports on the city they both left behind. Faithful loyally accompanies Christian until he is executed in the town of Vanity for the crime of disrespecting the local Satan-worshipping religion.
Talkative
Fellow pilgrim who travels alongside Christian and Faithful for a while. Talkative is spurned by Christian for valuing spiritual words over religious deeds.
Mr. By-ends
A user of religion for personal ends and social profit. Mr. By-ends accompanies Christian briefly after Christian escapes from Vanity.
Hopeful
Pilgrim who replaces Faithful as Christian’s travel companion and confidant after leaving Vanity, all the way to the Celestial City. Hopeful saves Christian’s life in the river before the gates to Mount Zion.
Giant Despair
Master of the Doubting Castle. Giant Despair imprisons Hopeful and Christian for trespassing on his domain and is later killed by Great-heart and Christiana’s sons.
Diffidence
Giant Despair’s wife. She encourages the harsh punishment of Hopeful and Christian in the Doubting Castle.
Demas
Gentlemanly figure who tries to entice Christian and Hopeful with silver and dreams of wealth.
Temporary
A would-be pilgrim whom Christian speaks of in a cautionary way, warning of Temporary’s backsliding before his spiritual progress was complete.
Sagacity
An elderly man who visits the narrator in his dream. After the narrator asks after Christian’s family, Sagacity offers to take the narrator’s place as the storyteller and recount Christiana’s journey.
Christiana
Christian’s wife and the titular pilgrim in Part II. As a spiritual voyager and a guide to her children, Christiana shows remarkable strength and resilience on the journey.
Mercy
Christiana’s neighbor employed by her as a servant on her pilgrimage. She later marries Matthew, Christiana’s eldest son.
Matthew
Christiana’s eldest son, who eventually marries Mercy. After stealing fruit from the devil’s garden, Matthew must be healed by Dr. Skill.
Joseph
A son of Christiana.
Samuel
A son of Christiana.
James
Christiana’s youngest son.
Ill-Favored Ones
Two strangers who attempt to harm Christiana and Mercy.
Reliever
Fellow pilgrim who rescues Christiana and Mercy from the two Ill-Favored Ones.
Mr. Great-heart
The Interpreter’s manservant. He protects and guides Christiana and Mercy on their way up the hill of Difficulty and toward the House Beautiful.
Watchful
Porter of the House Beautiful.
Grim
Master of the lions, who threatens Christiana and Mercy on their way to the House Beautiful.
Maul
A giant killed by Great-heart. He accuses Great-heart of kidnapping the pilgrims.
Mr. Brisk
Mercy’s suitor. He ends their affair because she is too involved in charity work.
Old Honest
An elderly pilgrim. While accompanying Christiana and her group, he relates the sad demise of the pilgrim Fearing.
Mr. Fearing
A pilgrim who accompanies Honest for some time. Mr. Fearing is courageous in the face of physical danger but insufficiently certain about his desire to reach the Celestial City.
Gaius
A homeowner and host who welcomes Christiana and her group. Two of Gaius’s daughters marry two of Christiana’s sons.
Giant Good-Slay
A giant slain by Gaius, Great-heart, and others. He almost devours the pilgrim Feeble-mind.
Heedless
A pilgrim who falls asleep near the end of his pilgrimage and talks in his sleep, showing his basic failure to understand pilgrimage.
Too-bold
Heedless’s cohort.
Madam Bubble
A tall, attractive, dark-skinned temptress. Madam Bubble offers Standfast herself and her money if he will stay with her.
Standfast
The last pilgrim met by Christiana. Standfast is found kneeling on the ground and praying in thanks for having been delivered from the temptation of Madam Bubble.
Mr. Feeble-Mind
A mentally slow pilgrim captured and nearly killed by the giant Good-Slay. Mr. Feeble-Mind is rescued by Gaius and joins Christiana’s group of pilgrims.
Mr. Ready-to-Halt
A handicapped pilgrim who joins Christiana’s group on crutches.
Mr. Mnason
Pilgrim with whom Christiana’s group lodges. Two of Mnason’s daughters are married off to Christiana’s sons.
Contrite
Friend of Mnason’s, who says that the locals feel a burden of guilt after the unjust execution of Christian’s friend Faithful.
Valiant-for-truth
A strong, sword-wielding pilgrim. Valiant-for-truth drives off three attackers single-handedly and joins Christiana’s group at the end of their journey."
https://www.sparknotes.com/lit/pilgrims/characters/
"Christian
Husband and father stricken by spiritual crisis. Christian is told by a messenger to leave his doomed city and begin a journey of progress toward spiritual achievement.
Evangelist
The messenger carrying the Gospel, or word of Christ, to Christian. Evangelist spurs Christian on his journey to the Celestial City.
Obstinate
A neighbor of Christian’s in the City of Destruction who refuses to accompany him.
Pliable
A neighbor of Christian’s who accompanies him for a while. After falling in the Slough of Despond, Pliable is discouraged and returns home, only to be mocked by the townsfolk.
Help
Fellow pilgrim who helps pull Christian from the Slough of Despond.
Worldly Wiseman
A reasonable and practical man whom Christian encounters early in his journey. Worldly Wiseman tries unsuccessfully to urge Christian to give up his religious foolishness and live a contented secular life.
Formalist
A traveler whom Christian meets along the wall of Salvation. With his companion Hypocrisy, Formalist sneaks over the wall, instead of following the strait and narrow as Christian did.
Hypocrisy
Formalist’s travel companion.
Discretion
One of the four mistresses of the Palace Beautiful. Discretion takes Christian in and feeds him.
Piety
One of the four mistresses of the Palace Beautiful. Piety asks Christian about his journey so far.
Prudence
One of the four mistresses of the Palace Beautiful. Prudence tries to understand Christian’s purpose in traveling to Mount Zion.
Charity
One of the four mistresses of the Palace Beautiful. Charity asks Christian why he did not bring his family, which causes him to weep.
The Interpreter
Spiritual guide who shelters Christian. The Interpreter instructs Christian in the art of reading religious meanings hidden in everyday objects and events, which he houses in his Significant Rooms.
Apollyon
Fierce monster with fish scales, bear feet, and dragon wings. Apollyon threatens Christian and fights him with sword until Christian defeats him.
Shining Ones
Three celestial creatures who clothe Christian with new garments and give him the certificate. The Shining Ones act as guardians throughout Christian’s journey.
Faithful
Fellow pilgrim from Christian’s hometown who reports on the city they both left behind. Faithful loyally accompanies Christian until he is executed in the town of Vanity for the crime of disrespecting the local Satan-worshipping religion.
Talkative
Fellow pilgrim who travels alongside Christian and Faithful for a while. Talkative is spurned by Christian for valuing spiritual words over religious deeds.
Mr. By-ends
A user of religion for personal ends and social profit. Mr. By-ends accompanies Christian briefly after Christian escapes from Vanity.
Hopeful
Pilgrim who replaces Faithful as Christian’s travel companion and confidant after leaving Vanity, all the way to the Celestial City. Hopeful saves Christian’s life in the river before the gates to Mount Zion.
Giant Despair
Master of the Doubting Castle. Giant Despair imprisons Hopeful and Christian for trespassing on his domain and is later killed by Great-heart and Christiana’s sons.
Diffidence
Giant Despair’s wife. She encourages the harsh punishment of Hopeful and Christian in the Doubting Castle.
Demas
Gentlemanly figure who tries to entice Christian and Hopeful with silver and dreams of wealth.
Temporary
A would-be pilgrim whom Christian speaks of in a cautionary way, warning of Temporary’s backsliding before his spiritual progress was complete.
Sagacity
An elderly man who visits the narrator in his dream. After the narrator asks after Christian’s family, Sagacity offers to take the narrator’s place as the storyteller and recount Christiana’s journey.
Christiana
Christian’s wife and the titular pilgrim in Part II. As a spiritual voyager and a guide to her children, Christiana shows remarkable strength and resilience on the journey.
Mercy
Christiana’s neighbor employed by her as a servant on her pilgrimage. She later marries Matthew, Christiana’s eldest son.
Matthew
Christiana’s eldest son, who eventually marries Mercy. After stealing fruit from the devil’s garden, Matthew must be healed by Dr. Skill.
Joseph
A son of Christiana.
Samuel
A son of Christiana.
James
Christiana’s youngest son.
Ill-Favored Ones
Two strangers who attempt to harm Christiana and Mercy.
Reliever
Fellow pilgrim who rescues Christiana and Mercy from the two Ill-Favored Ones.
Mr. Great-heart
The Interpreter’s manservant. He protects and guides Christiana and Mercy on their way up the hill of Difficulty and toward the House Beautiful.
Watchful
Porter of the House Beautiful.
Grim
Master of the lions, who threatens Christiana and Mercy on their way to the House Beautiful.
Maul
A giant killed by Great-heart. He accuses Great-heart of kidnapping the pilgrims.
Mr. Brisk
Mercy’s suitor. He ends their affair because she is too involved in charity work.
Old Honest
An elderly pilgrim. While accompanying Christiana and her group, he relates the sad demise of the pilgrim Fearing.
Mr. Fearing
A pilgrim who accompanies Honest for some time. Mr. Fearing is courageous in the face of physical danger but insufficiently certain about his desire to reach the Celestial City.
Gaius
A homeowner and host who welcomes Christiana and her group. Two of Gaius’s daughters marry two of Christiana’s sons.
Giant Good-Slay
A giant slain by Gaius, Great-heart, and others. He almost devours the pilgrim Feeble-mind.
Heedless
A pilgrim who falls asleep near the end of his pilgrimage and talks in his sleep, showing his basic failure to understand pilgrimage.
Too-bold
Heedless’s cohort.
Madam Bubble
A tall, attractive, dark-skinned temptress. Madam Bubble offers Standfast herself and her money if he will stay with her.
Standfast
The last pilgrim met by Christiana. Standfast is found kneeling on the ground and praying in thanks for having been delivered from the temptation of Madam Bubble.
Mr. Feeble-Mind
A mentally slow pilgrim captured and nearly killed by the giant Good-Slay. Mr. Feeble-Mind is rescued by Gaius and joins Christiana’s group of pilgrims.
Mr. Ready-to-Halt
A handicapped pilgrim who joins Christiana’s group on crutches.
Mr. Mnason
Pilgrim with whom Christiana’s group lodges. Two of Mnason’s daughters are married off to Christiana’s sons.
Contrite
Friend of Mnason’s, who says that the locals feel a burden of guilt after the unjust execution of Christian’s friend Faithful.
Valiant-for-truth
A strong, sword-wielding pilgrim. Valiant-for-truth drives off three attackers single-handedly and joins Christiana’s group at the end of their journey."
https://www.sparknotes.com/lit/pilgrims/characters/