Pilate interpolated in Justin

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Giuseppe
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Pilate interpolated in Justin

Post by Giuseppe »

A very excellent article by Chris Albert Wells marks a real progress for mythicist studies. This is true scientific scholarship, in my view.

I quote here only a good point about Justin, but the rest of the article would deserve a distinct discussion.

Can Justin contribute more efficiently to the debate? We find mention of Jesus’ trial under Pilate in chapters 30, 102, and 103 of Justin’s Dialogue with Trypho. It is nevertheless disturbing that Justin’s dialogue, centered entirely on scriptural arguments, should suddenly be so talkative about the Gospels in chapters 78, 102, and 103, focusing on the initial infancy and childhood chapters comprising Luke’s census and Matthew’s Herod. These canonical additions were completed in reaction to the Marcionite challenges and were only fully known at Rome in Tatian’s days. Furthermore, Justin is not even arguing here against his fictive opponent Trypho, as was the case in other chapters, but simply storytelling as a troubadour. Later harmonizing, so common for the purpose of confirming official data, could account for the impression one gets that the church in Justin’s days had loose, fragmentary information and not yet an authoritative ensemble that could be called a New Testament. Enforcing the impression that Justin’s works were corrupted, we find the two very disputable mentions of the Acts of Pontius Pilate (earliest known as a seventh-century manuscript) in his first Apology, so conveniently placed at the very end of their respective paragraphs.
Justin’s beliefs appear in his Dialogues:
“You have slain the Just One, and His prophets before him.” (Chapter 16) “After you had crucified him, the only man without sins and just” (Chapter 17) “The Jews deliberated on the Messiah, to crucify him” (Chapter 72) The death to which the synagogue of the evil condemned him (Chapter 104) You seized him and during Easter you crucified him” (Chapter 111).
Justin, contemporary to Peter-Acts, gives the same interpretation as Peter: ‘this man that you (the Jews) killed. A timeless event, without any date.

(my bold)

After this, I give up to believe that Pilate appeared in the oldest Gospel story.
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neilgodfrey
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Re: Pilate interpolated in Justin

Post by neilgodfrey »

Giuseppe wrote: Sun Aug 29, 2021 4:20 am A very excellent article by Chris Albert Wells marks a real progress for mythicist studies. This is true scientific scholarship, in my view.
Do you (does anyone) have any more information on the identity and background of Chris Albert Wells? He indicates that he a Faculty member at the Université Paris VII, Science, but Science is distinct from Social Sciences and Humanities and has no relation to the history of Christianity studies. Is English his first language, but if so, why do his articles read in places as if they have been machine-translated? And why does he use that "word" "prophesized" instead of "prophesied"?!! Can you or anyone confirm his status at the Université Paris VII?

I have only read over one of his articles, one about Paul's letter to the Romans, and found some very interesting points in that article.

Nonetheless, I would like to know more about Chris Albert Wells and his background.
Giuseppe
Posts: 13849
Joined: Mon Apr 27, 2015 5:37 am
Location: Italy

Re: Pilate interpolated in Justin

Post by Giuseppe »

neilgodfrey wrote: Sun Aug 29, 2021 6:55 pmbut Science is distinct from Social Sciences and Humanities and has no relation to the history of Christianity studies.
true (for that matter, I also come from faculty of Science) but he knows enough well the texts, surely better than some "scholars" of my knowledge.
neilgodfrey wrote: Sun Aug 29, 2021 6:55 pm Is English his first language, but if so, why do his articles read in places as if they have been machine-translated? And why does he use that "word" "prophesized" instead of "prophesied"?!!
I see that a long draft is written in French, hence maybe it his first language.

About his argument for the introduction of Pilate, I see that it differs from a similar attempt made in past by Guillet:

Pierre -E. Guillet. “Entree en scene de Pilate,” CahCercErnRen 24 (98, ’77) 1-24.Nothing in the Talmud or the genuine Pauline letters attributes a role to Pilate in the death of Jesus. Pilate entered the scene of the passion story in the edition of Mk that was strongly influenced by Jewish-Christian animosity toward the emperor Hadrian’s measures in putting down the Bar Kokhba rebellion.

https://archive.org/stream/newtestament ... e_djvu.txt

Unfortunately, that article of Guillet is still not found in his entirety.
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