Paul --- A Criminal and a Liar

Discussion about the New Testament, apocrypha, gnostics, church fathers, Christian origins, historical Jesus or otherwise, etc.
perseusomega9
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Re: Paul --- A Criminal and a Liar

Post by perseusomega9 »

StephenGoranson wrote: Thu Sep 23, 2021 5:05 am

The Biblical languages, Greek, Hebrew and Aramaic, seem to you not important for your interpretation of the Bible.
Yet, how would you know that?
I cannot read those languages, but I can read the books, monographs, and articles by scholars debating their different interpretations , compare their reasons and reconstructions, and derive my own conclusions right?
ABuddhist
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Re: Paul --- A Criminal and a Liar

Post by ABuddhist »

StephenGoranson wrote: Thu Sep 23, 2021 4:42 am ABuddhist, I was trying to explain myself to mh, but as you wrote, in part, “…Amitabha Buddha the heavenly saviour figure - who, no Buddhists assert, was ever upon this world..” may I note that very many Buddhists mention several incarnations?
You are profoundly ignorant about both Buddhism and my knowledge of Buddhism.

Standard Buddhist cosmology indeed talks about many Buddhas, but in Mahayana Buddhism (the tradition in which Amitabha Buddha is a figure), there are multiple inhabited worlds, some of which, including our world, have been made repositories of Buddhas' teachings, and some of which, not including our world, have Buddhas living and teaching upon them. Amitabha Buddha is said to live and teach within the world Sukhavati, where all Buddhists throughout the universe can be reborn (his partisans insist) if we have faith in him. According to the Buddhist Scriptures discussing Amitabha Buddha at length, Amitabha Buddha's entire career, from his vows as the monk Dharmākara to achieve Buddhahood billions of billions of years ago through his accumulation of merit over billions of billions of years to his final death billions of billions of years in the future, is never upon this world but always in other worlds.

Our world, according to all Buddhist traditions, has been graced by several Buddhas and will be graced in the future by the Buddha Maitreya (Sanskrit) or Metteyya (Pali). Buddhism as it now exists upon this Earth was founded by the Buddha Shakyamuni.

In Mahayana Buddhism, the Buddha Maitreya is said to have revealed from Tushita Heaven several treatises about reality to Asanga, which Mahayana Buddhists highly revere as scripture.

In Mahayana Buddhism, Amitabha Buddha is said to be not alone in his efforts; Akshobhya Buddha is also said (in the Akṣobhyatathāgatasyavyūha Sūtra) to offer salvation to Buddhists throughout the universe in another world, Abhirati.

So, within Mahayana Buddhism, we have several striking parallels to the mythicist model of Christian origins:

1. A heavenly saviour figure (Amitabha Buddha) whose salvation is based upon his followers' faith in him, but whose salvific deeds are not located upon Earth.

2. A heavenly figure (Maitreya Buddha), who in the future will supposedly come to Earth as a saviour but in the meantime sends messages to devoted followers (cf., the description of how the Revelation to John was received by John).

3. Competing models of salvation associated with different sects (of which I have not even touched upon Bhaiṣajya-guru-vaiḍūrya-prabhā-rāja) (cf., the controversy about works and faith within the Christians' scriptures).
StephenGoranson
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Re: Paul --- A Criminal and a Liar

Post by StephenGoranson »

I did offer one argument, again:
“There was, mh, one argument in there—that it is much easier to accept a human Paul that what complex conspiracy it would have taken to have faked him convincingly to so many ancient (and later) people.”
So far, mary and neil…did not address that. Did not even acknowledge that. Before repeating their old positions. Given that omission, why go on with this subject here, further?

perseusomega9 wrote:
“I cannot read those languages, but I can read the books, monographs, and articles by scholars debating their different interpretations , compare their reasons and reconstructions, and derive my own conclusions right?”

I reply: right indeed! But I suggest that there also are limits without those languages.
ABuddhist
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Re: Paul --- A Criminal and a Liar

Post by ABuddhist »

StephenGoranson wrote: Thu Sep 23, 2021 5:52 am I did offer one argument, again:Given that omission, why go on with this subject here, further?
Because they are not the only ones who would read your words.
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maryhelena
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Re: Paul --- A Criminal and a Liar

Post by maryhelena »

StephenGoranson wrote: Thu Sep 23, 2021 5:52 am I did offer one argument, again:
“There was, mh, one argument in there—that it is much easier to accept a human Paul that what complex conspiracy it would have taken to have faked him convincingly to so many ancient (and later) people.”
So far, mary and neil…did not address that. Did not even acknowledge that. Before repeating their old positions. Given that omission, why go, on the subject here, further?
Yep, - much easier to believe words rather than engaging ones brain as to their context and logic...now that takes effort.....

Taking the easy way rather than the more difficult way - that's not an argument - that is, in this case, an admission that one does not want, or is fearful, to face the hard work involved - and it's consequences for any faith position.
StephenGoranson
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Re: Paul --- A Criminal and a Liar

Post by StephenGoranson »

Buddhist teachers I have met and meditated with, including Mahayana and Vajrayana ones, have been less officious. But what do I know?

mh, still not addressing the comparative complexity of the two options. Occam's razor.
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maryhelena
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Re: Paul --- A Criminal and a Liar

Post by maryhelena »

StephenGoranson wrote: Thu Sep 23, 2021 6:14 am Buddhist teachers I have met and meditated with, including Mahayana and Vajrayana ones, have been less officious. But what do I know?

mh, still not addressing the comparative complexity of the two options. Occam's razor.


Occam's razor

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occam%27s_razor

Occam's razor, Ockham's razor, Ocham's razor (Latin: novacula Occami), or the principle of parsimony or law of parsimony (Latin: lex parsimoniae) is the problem-solving principle that "entities should not be multiplied beyond necessity",[1][2] sometimes inaccurately paraphrased as "the simplest explanation is usually the best one."[3]

Notice the word 'necessity'.......

It's necessity that requires a child to move from crawling on the ground to standing up, balancing on two feet - and walk.
Likewise, written words can't just sit on the ground, so to speak, they have to, as it were, stand up to context and logic -
------------------------------------------------

Yep, - much easier to believe words rather than engaging ones brain as to their context and logic...now that takes effort.....
ABuddhist
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Re: Paul --- A Criminal and a Liar

Post by ABuddhist »

StephenGoranson wrote: Thu Sep 23, 2021 6:14 am Buddhist teachers I have met and meditated with, including Mahayana and Vajrayana ones, have been less officious. But what do I know?
I praise you for having met and learned from such people. In this, you are more fortunate than I am, since my physical disabilities limit such actions by me. I cannot even be an Upasaka.

But you seem to lack the knowledge of how to respond to the central points of my words - even to dismiss them as off-topic. Not that I am saying that my words are off-topic, but I could understand how you could make such allegations.
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neilgodfrey
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Re: Paul --- A Criminal and a Liar

Post by neilgodfrey »

StephenGoranson wrote: Thu Sep 23, 2021 5:52 am I did offer one argument, again:
“There was, mh, one argument in there—that it is much easier to accept a human Paul that what complex conspiracy it would have taken to have faked him convincingly to so many ancient (and later) people.”
So far, mary and neil…did not address that. Did not even acknowledge that. Before repeating their old positions. Given that omission, why go on with this subject here, further?
Hi Stephen, thanks for responding. The reason I did not acknowledge that particular point was because it did not answer any of the points I was asking for along with ABuddhist:
1. In order to present the evidence.

2. In order to demonstrate further your reasoning and (alleged) skill in researching historical issues.

3. In order to refute what you think is an unreasonable model.
Simply asserting your conclusion through a form of question-begging is not the sort of response I was looking for, sorry. To avoid question begging, can you explain why is it "easier to accept a human Paul" on the evidence that you presumably base that acceptance upon? What is your evidence for the "human Paul" (presuming you mean historical Paul -- not wanting to get picky over grammar and words etc, but even a "falsified Paul" is conceptually still a human Paul) that makes him so easy to accept -- as the said historical figure? I expect the arguments to be based on sound historical methods in the treatment of sources, of course.

You mention ancient people believing in his historicity, but how do you know that that was how he started? Historians are well aware of a number of figures who have been assumed historical only to be much later discovered by more careful research to have not been so. What evidence is there in your view that establishes Paul as securely as, say, Socrates or some other figure is not likely to be the subject of controversy over his or her existence?

StephenGoranson wrote: Thu Sep 23, 2021 5:52 am perseusomega9 wrote:
“I cannot read those languages, but I can read the books, monographs, and articles by scholars debating their different interpretations , compare their reasons and reconstructions, and derive my own conclusions right?”

I reply: right indeed! But I suggest that there also are limits without those languages.
I agree. But I would be interested in knowing if you have instances in mind that are so critical that the lack of knowledge of a language prevents a serious researcher in biblical studies ever making a fair and proper evaluation of a critical argument of historical validity.
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neilgodfrey
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Re: Paul --- A Criminal and a Liar

Post by neilgodfrey »

ABuddhist wrote: Thu Sep 23, 2021 6:45 am
StephenGoranson wrote: Thu Sep 23, 2021 6:14 am Buddhist teachers I have met and meditated with, including Mahayana and Vajrayana ones, have been less officious. But what do I know?
I praise you for having met and learned from such people. In this, you are more fortunate than I am, since my physical disabilities limit such actions by me. I cannot even be an Upasaka.

But you seem to lack the knowledge of how to respond to the central points of my words - even to dismiss them as off-topic. Not that I am saying that my words are off-topic, but I could understand how you could make such allegations.
I like the gentleness that seems to come with so many Buddhist people I have encountered. I especially look forward to a less officious approach from one who has learned from Mahayana and Vajrayana ones towards mh.
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