Pierson on the two Pauls

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Irish1975
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Re: Pierson on the two Pauls

Post by Irish1975 »

neilgodfrey wrote: Thu Sep 23, 2021 2:00 am
Irish1975 wrote: Wed Sep 22, 2021 2:12 pm
5. He speaks of Jesus as of an image or leaven, which lay hidden a long time in his breast. . . .

I would like to learn more of what he had to say about this point.
Unfortunately he doesn't elaborate, as far as I can tell.

I think it's a good insight to see Paul's conversion moment in Galatians as something far more gradual than sudden. (We always misread the epistles in accordance with Acts). The long preparation of the revelation to Paul that begins in his mother's womb indicates something more in the nature of a long gestation, as from a germ or mustard seed or leaven, rather than the Martin Luther style lightning bolt experience.
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neilgodfrey
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Re: Pierson on the two Pauls

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Irish1975 wrote: Thu Sep 23, 2021 9:44 am
neilgodfrey wrote: Thu Sep 23, 2021 2:00 am
Irish1975 wrote: Wed Sep 22, 2021 2:12 pm
5. He speaks of Jesus as of an image or leaven, which lay hidden a long time in his breast. . . .

I would like to learn more of what he had to say about this point.
Unfortunately he doesn't elaborate, as far as I can tell.

I think it's a good insight to see Paul's conversion moment in Galatians as something far more gradual than sudden. (We always misread the epistles in accordance with Acts). The long preparation of the revelation to Paul that begins in his mother's womb indicates something more in the nature of a long gestation, as from a germ or mustard seed or leaven, rather than the Martin Luther style lightning bolt experience.
Yes, though I have become accustomed to seeing his claim for being called from womb as a link to Jeremiah, setting the figure of Paul up as one of the prophets. But why does Paul appear to describe his conversion as the moment when God revealed his Son IN him, not TO him? That doesn't seem to sit well with everything else we think we know.
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Irish1975
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Re: Pierson on the two Pauls

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neilgodfrey wrote: Thu Sep 23, 2021 9:51 am
Irish1975 wrote: Thu Sep 23, 2021 9:44 am I think it's a good insight to see Paul's conversion moment in Galatians as something far more gradual than sudden. (We always misread the epistles in accordance with Acts). The long preparation of the revelation to Paul that begins in his mother's womb indicates something more in the nature of a long gestation, as from a germ or mustard seed or leaven, rather than the Martin Luther style lightning bolt experience.
Yes, though I have become accustomed to seeing his claim for being called from womb as a link to Jeremiah, setting the figure of Paul up as one of the prophets. But why does Paul appear to describe his conversion as the moment when God revealed his Son IN him, not TO him? That doesn't seem to sit well with everything else we think we know.
Indeed. We've been over this ground before.

If I understand Pierson aright, the audacious and severe earlier apostle (as opposed to the "bishop Paul" who redacts the letter) preached only an immanent Jesus, only a Jesus who manifested first in Paul, then in the hearts of those who believe his Evangelion.

ζῇ δὲ ἐν ἐμοὶ Χριστός (2:20)
Ὦ ἀνόητοι Γαλάται, τίς ὑμᾶς ἐβάσκανεν, οἷς κατ’ ὀφθαλμοὺς Ἰησοῦς Χριστὸς προεγράφη ἐσταυρωμένος; (3:1)
ἐξαπέστειλεν ὁ θεὸς τὸ πνεῦμα τοῦ υἱοῦ αὐτοῦ εἰς τὰς καρδίας ἡμῶν (4:6)
ὡς ἄγγελον θεοῦ ἐδέξασθέ με, ὡς Χριστὸν Ἰησοῦν (4:14)
ὠδίνω μέχρις οὗ μορφωθῇ Χριστὸς ἐν ὑμῖν (4:19)
ἐγὼ γὰρ τὰ στίγματα τοῦ Ἰησοῦ ἐν τῷ σώματί μου βαστάζω (6:17)

These references to a mystical Jesus sit very uncomfortably alongside the one catholic/historicist verse that we get in 1:19.
robert j
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Re: Pierson on the two Pauls

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neilgodfrey wrote: Thu Sep 23, 2021 9:51 am
But why does Paul appear to describe his conversion as the moment when God revealed his Son IN him, not TO him? That doesn't seem to sit well with everything else we think we know.

The Greek term ἐν has a wide range of uses ---
https://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/re ... lang=greek

The term with a noun in the dative can be used to indicate instrumentality, as in this example from Matthew in which the Pharisees claim that the demons were cast out by the ruler of the demons. The wording indicates the action was “by means of” or “through the action of” the ruler of the demons ---

But the Pharisees were saying, “He casts out the demons by (ἐν) the ruler (in the dative) of the demons.” (Matthew 9:34, NASB)

See also 1 Corinthians 6:2, and 2 Corinthians 7:7.

In a similar vein in Galatians, I think Paul is claiming that God chose him as the instrument, as the agent to reveal the Son to the Gentiles. Read here for ἐν, "by means of" me or "through" me ---

But when God, the one having selected me from my mother's womb and having called me by His grace, was pleased to reveal His Son by (ἐν) me (in the dative), so that I might preach Him among the Gentiles … (Galatians 1:15-16)

Paul later elaborates on how he sees his role in that regard (the "we" and "us" here refer to Paul and his junior-partners) ---

… how that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself … and having put into us the word of reconciliation. Therefore we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God were making an appeal through us. We implore on behalf of Christ ... (2 Corinthians 5:19-20).

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neilgodfrey
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Re: Pierson on the two Pauls

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robert j wrote: Thu Sep 23, 2021 12:01 pm
neilgodfrey wrote: Thu Sep 23, 2021 9:51 am
But why does Paul appear to describe his conversion as the moment when God revealed his Son IN him, not TO him? That doesn't seem to sit well with everything else we think we know.

The Greek term ἐν has a wide range of uses ---
https://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/re ... lang=greek

The term with a noun in the dative can be used to indicate instrumentality, as in this example from Matthew in which the Pharisees claim that the demons were cast out by the ruler of the demons. The wording indicates the action was “by means of” or “through the action of” the ruler of the demons ---
The difficulty I have with that explanation is that it only raises a problem with the next word in Galatians 1:16 -- hina, so that, for the purpose of...

So if we read "in" as "by means of", we end up with a meaningless or pointless tautology:
to reveal his Son to gentiles by means of me/my preaching so that I might preach him among the Gentiles
The' "in" makes much more sense as "within" in the context of the following "hina/so that".
Giuseppe
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Re: Pierson on the two Pauls

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I see that the Naber and Pierson's book starts with a quote of Galenus. What does it say ?
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Irish1975
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Re: Pierson on the two Pauls

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Giuseppe wrote: Sat Sep 25, 2021 7:47 am I see that the Naber and Pierson's book starts with a quote of Galenus. What does it say ?
I think it reads,

The majority of interpreters seem to me to have suffered the same thing as the person who is sick with dropsy, who thinks it better to honor the physician than [παρωνυχίαν] to take care of himself.

I don't know what παρωνυχίαν means; "by night"? I can't find it in my dictionaries.

Maybe Galen is talking about the interpreters of dreams? Or oracles?
mbuckley3
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Re: Pierson on the two Pauls

Post by mbuckley3 »

A παρωνυχία is an extremely painful abscess on the finger, usually caused by herpes. The sense is indeed that most exegetes would rather defer to authority than analyse and remedy the problem. It's just that Galen puts it in a somewhat uncomplimentary way...
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Irish1975
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Re: Pierson on the two Pauls

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Interesting, thanks for your help with this.
mbuckley3 wrote: Sun Sep 26, 2021 7:56 pm A παρωνυχία is an extremely painful abscess on the finger, usually caused by herpes. The sense is indeed that most exegetes would rather defer to authority than analyse and remedy the problem. It's just that Galen puts it in a somewhat uncomplimentary way...
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