Arthur Droge: The apostle Paul.

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maryhelena
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Arthur Droge: The apostle Paul.

Post by maryhelena »

I posted these comments from Arthur Droge on another thread. However, I thought that Droge's conclusions merited their own thread. I know there has been another thread on 1 Cor 2:6-16 so that is not going to be the focus of this thread. It's the suggestion made by Arthur Droge that is of interest. The suggestion that: ''It would mean, in other words, that the corpus paulinum will no more yield a historical Paul than the gospels have yielded a historical Jesus. But we would surely be none the worse for that.''

As I have tried to suggest, it would be better to think of “First Corinthians” at the pre-collection stage as an active site or open file, more along the lines of an archive or dossier, and certainly not a unified, much less actual, letter. So conceived, the process that yielded the letter known as “First Corinthinas,” as well as the collection known as the corpus paulinum, would be analogous to the process of the composition of the gospels. In other words, at some point in the second century materials of heterogeneous origin, date, and provenance began to be fashioned into a loose epistolary form and attributed to a figure from the first century. What would such a scenario imply about the authenticity of the very texts upon which Pauline scholarship is based? At a minimum it would challenge the current scholarly consensus that presumes it is in possession of six (or seven) of Paul’s authentic letters. It would also require greater circumspection on the part of scholars who would presume to read these letters as if they provided a gateway to the first century, as well as access to a “real” (viz., historical) first-century figure whose biography can be recovered. It would mean, in other words, that the corpus paulinum will no more yield a historical Paul than the gospels have yielded a historical Jesus. But we would surely be none the worse for that.


footnote 72: On this, see Elaine Pagels, The Gnostic Paul: Gnostic Exegesis of the Pauline Letters (Philadelphia:
Fortress Press, 1975), 1–6, 57–59, 88, though she is working from the premise that 1 Cor. 2:6–16 is
Pauline. To be clear, my point is not that 2:6–16 influenced the Valentinians, but that the Valentinians
“influenced” Paul. Yet this was not only true of the Valentinians. “Paul” (or better, “Pauls”) was (were) a
literary fabrication of the second century, and in general assumed three separate generic forms: epistolary,
commentarial, and narratival. Cf. the similar second-century creations of “Peters,” “Johns,” “Thomases,”
“Jameses” et al.]Whether a “historical” Paul can be disentangled from this is a question to which I will
return shortly.

“Whodunnit? Paul’s Peculiar Passion and Its Implications”

Arthur Droge

Pre-print version. Forthcoming in a collection of essays on Paul.

https://www.academia.edu/43327375/_Whod ... lications_

Arthur Droge says he will return to the question of whether a 'historical' Paul can be disentangled' from his study of the Pauline epistles.

If the ahistoricst position on the gospel Jesus is ever going to move beyond the confines of a fringe interest - then the historicity of the NT figure of Paul has to be addressed. Mythicists like Carrier and Doherty have failed to take this question seriously. They have, in effect, not followed through with their cosmic 'crucifixion' insight. Over the years I've often said to Doherty - don't put all your eggs in a Pauline basket. If the NT Paul is a fabricated figure - then Carrier and Doherty have to go back to the drawing board. Interpreting 1 Cor. 2.6-8 as a cosmic 'crucifixion' is not the end of the road - a supposed arrival point - a this is it position. A cosmic 'crucifixion' is not the end but the beginning of a search for an understanding of early christian origins - just as viewing the gospel Jesus as a literary figure is not the end but the beginning of a search for early christian origins. The question mythicists should have been asking themselves is 'what now?' - instead they have been digging into their entrenched positions instead of exploring the possibilities their insight had presented them with. Perhaps it's now time for the 'ball' to be taken from them by scholars like Arthur Droge and Thomas Brodie.

"The historicity of Paul is the last line of defense in the battle to save the
veracity of the Bible." Jake from JM list.

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Irish1975
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Re: Arthur Droge: The apostle Paul.

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The discussion of interpolation in this paper is unsatisfactory. The problem with claims of “interpolation,” as in the case of 1 Cor 2:6-16, is that it gives the false impression that the surrounding text, against which it is evaluated, is or should be deemed authentic. Droge betrays an awareness of this problem in his closing footnotes, and yet the paper is constructed on the basis of a theory of interpolation.

He also goes too far in attempting to pin down a date of composition for this fragment. We have good reason to reject the chronology of canonical Christianity, but it does not follow that we have sufficient reason to construct an alternative “skeptical” chronology.
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Re: Arthur Droge: The apostle Paul.

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Irish1975 wrote: Fri Sep 24, 2021 8:48 am The problem with claims of “interpolation,” as in the case of 1 Cor 2:6-16, is that it gives the false impression that the surrounding text, against which it is evaluated, is or should be deemed authentic.
True. The problem for Droge is that even conceding that a core of Paul is authentic, the core is so insignificant that its only function is to continue to have a free electron named Paul before the 70 CE. I.e. dating so Christianity before the 70.
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Re: Arthur Droge: The apostle Paul.

Post by Giuseppe »

The Paul problem is for 50% connected with his name.

1) It is probably a theological nickname.

2) Saul is probably not his original name.

3) The riotous diversity about Paul legend is a fact.

4) Despite of 3, none in all the world knew the original name of Paul.

5) if Paul existed, then his is the only case in the entire history of the world where the original name is lost, and the guy becomes famous in all the world only under his nickname.

Really?

This remembers me Vinny's words about the historical Jesus being recorded in the human history not for what he did in life, but only for what his ghost did after his death.

Idem for the historical Paul: he is recorded for what is connected with his nickname, and not for what he did under his true name.
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Re: Arthur Droge: The apostle Paul.

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Irish1975 wrote: Fri Sep 24, 2021 8:48 am The discussion of interpolation in this paper is unsatisfactory. The problem with claims of “interpolation,” as in the case of 1 Cor 2:6-16, is that it gives the false impression that the surrounding text, against which it is evaluated, is or should be deemed authentic. Droge betrays an awareness of this problem in his closing footnotes, and yet the paper is constructed on the basis of a theory of interpolation.
Droge does, in a footnote, say that 'interpolation' is perhaps a misnomer:

To label 1 Cor. 2:6–16
an interpolation, then, may be a misnomer. For in order for it to be such would require that 1 Cor. have
actually been a real letter, or at least unified and stable enough to admit of being interpolated. I no longer
think that a likely scenario. I even doubt whether it is correct to refer to 1 Cor. as a collection of letters
from which real letters might be disarticulated. At least scholars have not achieved a consensus on this
question. On the other hand, to think of 1 Cor. as a dossier would allow us to imagine how a passage like
2:6–16 could have wound up as a piece of it. Rather than being the work of an interpolator, it is more likely
that a collector or redactor, who was assembling the dossier into the loose form of a letter, was the one
responsible for both the inclusion of our passage and its present location in 1 Cor.

Droge's argument, it seems to me, is perhaps more a case of seeing two voices in the verses he is studying. Labeling one voice an interpolation would then not be an accurate reflection of how he views the development of the material in 1 Cor. One voice being later than the other voice does not automatically make it an interpolation. Especially so, I would think, at a time when the first voice had not been canonized - or as we would perhaps say today - copyrighted. Consequently, both voices are legitimate components of 1 Cor. So - 'Paul' has two voices - or - two Paul figures in two different time slots - or the NT figure of Paul is a literary figure.
He also goes too far in attempting to pin down a date of composition for this fragment. We have good reason to reject the chronology of canonical Christianity, but it does not follow that we have sufficient reason to construct an alternative “skeptical” chronology.
What is interesting re Droge's late dating for the 'interpolation' is that it opens up a time period between the earlier part of the text and the later interpolation. And interestingly, such a time gap presents serious problems for Richard Carrier's Jesus from Outer Space. It suggests that the cosmic 'crucifixion' is a later addition to the developing NT story. A later addition that would put the Carrier mythicists in a tailspin...

Has he gone too far with the 'interpolation' being dated around 140 c.e. ? Such a late dating might indicate that the 'interpolation' was a fight back against those, perhaps Jewish Christians, who sought to give primacy to the gospel story and its historical relevance. Bottom line - only with the cosmic 'crucifixion' of 1 Cor. 2: 6-8 could Christianity finally break free from it's Jewish roots. Time wise - 140 c.e. seems an appropriate time for the cosmic 'crucifixion' - it's time had come........

I only recently read Droge's article on Paul. I'd seen his name mentioned re the cosmic 'crucifixion' issue but thought, oh well, another scholar considering 1 Cor.2 - interesting but not of particular concern to me. However, when I read the article and realized how his mind works - that he is prepared to take the issue of a cosmic 'crucifixion' further than Carrier and Doherty - then I am all ears....The mythicst stalemate has continued for far too long - time to move the argument from gospel Jesus to Paul of the epistles.
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Re: Arthur Droge: The apostle Paul.

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In the previous post I wrote:

What is interesting re Droge's late dating for the 'interpolation' is that it opens up a time period between the earlier part of the text and the later interpolation. And interestingly, such a time gap presents serious problems for Richard Carrier's Jesus from Outer Space. It suggests that the cosmic 'crucifixion' is a later addition to the developing NT story. A later addition that would put the Carrier mythicists in a tailspin...

Droge says that his article is a ''Pre-print version. Forthcoming in a collection of essays on Paul.'' (I don't know if this collection of essays has been published....) Hence, how his argument over 1 Cor.2:6-18 has been received by his academic peers is unknown at this stage. Perhaps he won't go all the way and decide there is insufficient historical evidence of a NT Paul. Perhaps he might end up agreeing with Thomas Brodie:

The idea that Paul was a literary figure did not remove the possibility that behind the epistles lay one outstanding historical figure who was central to the inspiring of the epistles, but that is not the figure whom the epistles portray. Under that person's inspiration - or the inspiration of that person plus co-workers - the epistles portray a single individual. Paul, who incorporates in himself and in his teaching a distillation of the age-long drama of God's work on earth.

Thomas Brodie: Beyond the Quest for the Historical Jesus.

Brodie says this ''outstanding historical figure'' is not the figure the NT presents as it's apostle Paul. Now, with Droge viewing 1 Cor.2:6-16 as a later 'interpolation' that reflects a voice other than the earlier voice - then 1 Cor.2:6-16 is reflecting more than one 'outstanding historical figure''. One could perhaps argue that the second voice simply reflects a philosophical development of the earlier voice - thus retaining just one 'outstanding historical figure'. Be that as it may - the conclusion that Droge has arrived at is that the 'interpolation' is a late addition to the text - as late as around 140 c.e. It is this lateness of the cosmic 'crucifixion' idea that is a challenge to the mythicist position of Richard Carrier.

Richard Carrier upholds a historical NT Paul. He also places this figure in the consensus pre 70 c.e. time frame. Hence, he needs 1 Cor.2:6-16 to be dated within that time frame. Arthur Droge's article is the first major challenge to Richard Carrier that I have come across. In that article Droge does not date the material outside verses 6-16 of 1 Cor.2. He dates the 'interpolation' verses to 140 c.e. Thus, whatever ones position on a historical NT Paul - Droge's argument on an 'interpolation' of these specific verses to around 140 c.e. stands as an argument that challenges Richard Carrier mythicist position.

Carrier can no longer use these verses as the bedrock position of early christian origins. The 'interpolation' suggests the cosmic 'crucifixion' was not the initial origin story - it was rather a development, a philosophical development, on an already established philosophical or theological movement. As the NT story itself suggests - the apostle Paul was a late arrival - there was a movement prior to his appearance. The NT Paul took the movement forward. (using 'movement' simply as a reflection of whatever groups of intellectuals were involved in the NT writings) Droge's argument re the cosmic 'crucifixion' suggests that it was that argument, that new philosophical position, that was Paul's 'announcement'. Droge dates the cosmic 'crucifixion' 'interpolation' to around 140 c.e. - that would be the time when the development, Paul's 'announcement', took place.

The Historicity of Paul the Apostle
BY RICHARD CARRIER ON JUNE 6, 2015

https://www.richardcarrier.info/archive ... ket_mylist

Pauline philosophical ideas are all very well but we don't just live in our heads. Our feet remain on terra-firma. Our reality matters, our history matters - as it mattered for the gospel writers. What they left us with is a Jesus story; an allegorical story that upholds the relevance of history for that story - and thus for the developing Pauline philosophy that took that Jewish story to the Gentiles.

So....it's back to the drawing board for the Carrier mythicists. What they need to acknowledge is that the NT story upholds two crucifixion stories. The 'heavenly' cosmic 'crucifixion of the Pauline epistle and the gospel Jesus crucifixion story. The Jerusalem above and the Jerusalem below. The body and the spirit. The flesh and blood and the spiritual/intellectual/philosophical nature of man. Physical reality, history and the evolutionary nature of our 'spiritual' intellect.
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Re: Arthur Droge: The apostle Paul.

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The Proposed Non-Pauline Interpolation that Carrier-school Mythicists Tend Not to be Aware of.

https://jesustweezers.home.blog/2019/02 ... -aware-of/

Central to the Richard Carrier-school mythicist thesis is the idea that Paul believed Jesus’ crucifixion occurred not here on Earth at the hands of ‘earthly’ ruling elites like Pilate and the Sanhedrin, but in outer-space at the hands of demons. One of the school’s most beloved proof-texts is 1 Corinthians 2:6-8, in which Paul is reported to have written:

“Yet among the mature we do speak wisdom, though it is not a wisdom of this age or of the rulers (Gk: ‘archons’) of this age, who are doomed to perish. But we speak God’s wisdom, secret and hidden, which God decreed before the ages for our glory. None of the rulers (‘archons’) of this age understood this, for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory”

Carrier says of this passage: “In the mythicist thesis, it was originally believed [by the earliest Christians that] the Prince of This World [i.e. the head demon] killed Jesus not knowing who he was (1 Cor. 2.8), because everything about him was kept hidden (1 Cor 2.7), and only revealed spiritually, by revelation to his elect (1 Cor. 2.10)” (“On the Historicity of Jesus”, 2014, p.321)[

<snip>

But there is another option that must be considered at least a further small hurdle for the Carrier-school thesis to overcome – that the passage might not even be from the hand of Paul. While this view is not widely held, several scholars over the years have proposed 1 Corinthians 2:6-16 to be a later non-Pauline interpolation. I do my best below to paraphrase and summarize the arguments of William O. Walker as found in his 1992 publication “1 Cor 2:6-16 – A Non Pauline Interpolation” (JSNT 47, 1992, p.75-94) who openly builds on and defends the work of the German scholar M. Widmann who came to the same conclusion about the inauthenticity of the passage in the 1970s. Basically, the reasons for thinking 1 Cor 2:6-16 might well be an interpolation include:

1. Contextual considerations – the relation of the passage to its immediate context. Consider, for example, the smooth and coherent flow had the text initially read from 2:5 to 3:1. Note also the abrupt shift beginning at v.6 from singular (‘I’) to plural (‘we’), from aorist to present tense.

2. Linguistic considerations – the distinctive language and style of the passage. Several words and phrases appear in the passage that are nowhere else found in the authentic epistles, including loaded theological terms that we might have expected Paul to use elsewhere. These include: “the rulers of this age” (v.6, 8), “before the ages” (v.7), “the Lord of glory” (v.8), “the spirit of the man” (v.11), “the spirit who is from God” (v.12), “natural man” (v.14), and several others.

3. Ideational considerations – the distinctive and potentially contradictory set of ideas in the passage. For example, Christian speech is now viewed as the mysterious hidden divine Wisdom or ‘the things of the deep’ *rather than* as the openly proclaimed word of the cross. Indeed, a positive view of Wisdom is now made *rather than* the rejection of Wisdom and, paradoxically, identifying the cross as Wisdom.

<snip>

If it is true that 1 Corinthians 2:6-16 is an interpolation, it must surely be seen as a significant blow to the Carrier-school thesis as it would remove the only hint of a verse in the authentic Pauline corpus in which Paul might attribute the death of Jesus to demons (that is, if by ‘archons’ he means demons).


Arthur Droge

14 Martin Widmann, “1 Kor 2 6–16: Ein Einspruch gegen Paulus,” ZNW 70 (1979): 44–53, esp. 46, 50–53,
though he gives no indication about when this happened. Widmann refrains from calling Paul’s opponents
“Gnostiker,” but believes that his analysis “has unburdened [Paul] of the ‘strange’ [fremdartige] statements
of 2 6–16” (53). Alas, there is no accounting for theological taste. William O. Walker, Jr., Interpolations in
the Pauline Letters, JSNTSup 213 (Sheffield: Sheffield Academic Press, 2001), 127–46, mounts a solid
defense of Widmann’s case (absent the value judgment) over the objections of Jerome Murphy-O’Connor,
“Interpolations in 1 Corinthians,” CBQ 48 (1986): 81–94, esp. 81–84. Still, it is important to bear in mind
that Widmann never referred to 2:6–16 as an “interpolation.” Whether he was right to describe it as a
“gloss” is a question to which I will return.

I don't know if Carrier has ever addressed the issue of an 'interpolation' in 1 Cor.2. However, what is central to the debate at this junction is that Droge has dated the 'interpolation' to around 140 c.e. Hence, adding additional problems for Carrier's Jesus from Outer Space theory prior to, re Carrier's dating re NT Paul, 70 c.e.
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Re: Arthur Droge: The apostle Paul.

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The blogger you quote is basically correct.

The problem has been signaled even in the time of Couchoud (the precursor of Doherty as to outer space death etc).

In their time, it was Joseph Turmel the first to recognize that the epistles can be 'purified' from Gnostic interpolations placing the death of Jesus in outer space.

Image

Prosper Alfaric was the only mythicist to concede this point (that 1 Cor 2:6-8 was a Valentinian interpolation), hence he was more an agnostic than a mythicist.

Between the "irreducible" mythicists who didn't want to concede that 1 Cor 2:6-8 is an interpolation, there was Couchoud himself (who defended himself by merely considering a lot of things as genuine in Paul, the same tactic followed by Richard Carrier today), and especially Edouard Dujardin, who wrote an entire book, Grandeur et décadence de la critique, sa rénovation (1931), devoted to attack the disgraceful Turmel to have raised the hypothesis interpolation.

Curiously, the same trajectory of Turmel has been followed by Roger Parvus, who has become historicist after the realization that 1 Cor 2:6-8 can't be used as mythicist argument in virtue of its interpolated character.

I confess that without 1 Cor 2:6-8 as original, mythicism à la Carrier/Doherty/Couchoud/Dujardin collapses totally.

But please recognize the other side of the coin: in virtue of the same reasoning, if 1 Cor 2:6-8 is genuine, then mythicism wins.
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Re: Arthur Droge: The apostle Paul.

Post by maryhelena »

An old thread by Ben Smith.

1 Corinthians 2.6-16 as an interpolation.

viewtopic.php?t=3842
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Re: Arthur Droge: The apostle Paul.

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But you can't quote Ben Smith as supporting the view of your blogger, since he said to me somewhere in this forum that even if 1 Cor 2:6-8 is an interpolation, it could reflect the original pauline thought and so be still valid for mythicism. Unfortunately, he was not able at all to realize that an interpolated 1 Cor 2:6-8 goes directly against the mythicism.
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