rgprice wrote: ↑Fri Sep 24, 2021 3:21 am
Let's step back and take a look at the central elements that deal with the family of Jesus across the canonical Gospels:
Gospel of Thomas logion 99, my literal translation:
99. said the(PL) Disciple to he : your(.PL) brothers with your(F) mother they standing-on-foot they on the part outside said he to they : they-who of these place who/which make-be [dop] the desire of my father these-ones are my(PL) brothers with my(F) mother themselves is who/which will go-inward to the(F) reign-of(F) king of my father
And the Interpretation of that:
99. The Disciples said to him: your brothers with your mother, they are standing on their feet "on the part outside".
He said to them: they who are of these places - who do the desire of my father - these ones are my brothers with my mother; themselves will go inward to the reign-of king of my father
Naturally, "the part outside" is vital here, and the entire point. It is symbolic for the wrong part, that is not fertile, and the core of any answer in Thomas is to look inside, not outside.
Where is the vine planted that will get uprooted? Exactly
Mark 3:
31 Then His mother and His brothers *came, and while standing outside they sent word to Him, calling for Him. 32 And a crowd was sitting around Him, and they said to Him, “Behold, Your mother and Your brothers are outside looking for You.” 33 Answering them, He said, “Who are My mother and My brothers?” 34 And looking around at those who were sitting around Him, He said, “Here are My mother and My brothers! 35 For whoever does the will of God, this is My brother, and sister, and mother.”
Thomas logion 99... with "sisters" evidently added
Mark 6:
1Jesus went out from there and *came into His hometown; and His disciples followed Him. 2 And when the Sabbath came, He began to teach in the synagogue; and the many listeners were astonished, saying, “Where did this man learn these things, and what is this wisdom that has been given to Him, and such miracles as these performed by His hands? 3 Is this not the carpenter, the son of Mary and brother of James, Joses, Judas, and Simon? And are His sisters not here with us?”
They must have regretted it so very, very much that this Markan brain fart couldn't get swiped under the carpet anymore
Matthew 12:
46 While He was still speaking to the crowds, behold, His mother and brothers were standing outside, seeking to speak to Him. 47 Someone said to Him, “Look, Your mother and Your brothers are standing outside, seeking to speak to You.” 48 But Jesus replied to the one who was telling Him and said, “Who is My mother, and who are My brothers?” 49 And extending His hand toward His disciples, He said, “Behold: My mother and My brothers! 50 For whoever does the will of My Father who is in heaven, he is My brother, and sister, and mother.”
Thomas logion 99, and the evolution from Mark is evident
Matthew 13:
53 When Jesus had finished these parables, He departed from there. 54 And He came to His hometown and began teaching them in their synagogue, with the result that they were astonished, and said, “Where did this man acquire this wisdom and these miraculous powers? 55 Is this not the carpenter’s son? Is His mother not called Mary, and His brothers, James, Joseph, Simon, and Judas? 56 And His sisters, are they not all with us?
His sisters... LOL.
But it would seem that Judas (Dydimos Judas Thomas) originally didn't betray Jesus in Mark 1.0, so to say, if he made it his this far
Luke 4:
22 And all the people were speaking well of Him, and admiring the gracious words which were coming from His lips; and yet they were saying, “Is this not Joseph’s son?” 23 And He said to them, “No doubt you will quote this proverb to Me: ‘Physician, heal yourself! All the miracles that we heard were done in Capernaum, do here in your hometown as well.’” 24 But He said, “Truly I say to you, no prophet is welcome in his hometown.
Thomas logion 31, emphasis mine - that, on a side note
Luke 8:
19 Now His mother and brothers came to Him, and they were unable to get to Him because of the crowd. 20 And it was reported to Him, “Your mother and Your brothers are standing outside, wishing to see You.” 21 But He answered and said to them, “My mother and My brothers are these who hear the word of God and do it.”
Thomas logion 99
John 6:
41 So then the Jews were complaining about Him because He said, “I am the bread that came down out of heaven.” 42 And they were saying, “Is this not Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? How does He now say, ‘I have come down out of heaven’?” 43 Jesus answered and said to them, “Stop complaining among yourselves. 44 No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day.
Some observations: In Luke 3-23, which is recognized as a separate layer of Luke that was produced prior to canonical Luke, the mother of Jesus is never given the name Mary. In addition, he is called a son of Joseph. The name Mary is never given to the mother of Jesus either in Marcion's Gospel or the Gospel of John. The name Mary is also not used for the mother of Jesus in Luke 3-23.
If we put ideas about Markan priority aside for a moment and forget about trying to figure out the order in which things may or may not have been written, consider this proposition:
Some earliest narrative existed in which a "mother of Jesus" had no name. She was just the "mother of Jesus".
Correct. That's Thomas
But this "mother of Jesus" was actually denied to be his mother, indeed in the earliest narrative the only point of the mention of his family was for him to deny that he had a family.
Wrong, and crooked thinking. It is impossible to deny that someone is someone else's mother if they don't get identified at all
In addition, early narratives existed in which there was a female companion named Mary. Now this Mary was a sort of Gnostic wisdom figure, who became Mary Magdalene.
Correct. That's Thomas
In later narratives, Mary Magdalene was conflated with the "mother of Jesus", thus giving rise to the name of Mary as Jesus' mother.
Now, the details of all this I make no claim to having worked out, and it throws a wrench into my concept of Gospel origins, but it does seem to have something going for it.
Thoughts?
Dear Geoff, I will do a bit of predicting the future.
In 3-5 years from now, perhaps 10, it will have become proven and accepted by most (who matter) that (Coptic) Thomas is the source to all, and that Marcion took him into a narrative. And we will have solved all of it once and for all, and that will simply be the end to it. Of course there will be resistance, and of course it will have giant implications, but that's not the point - it simply is irrefutable, and tons of textual evidence traces point to it
Now, you can stand "on the part outside" and not partake in it, or you can become an insider and enjoy some really early and exciting research.
All that's required is here: Klinghardt's Marcion, the most detailed and complete that there ever will be; my Thomas translation, the most detailed and complete that there ever will be - and I trust you have an NA28 for research on the side if need be
The endgame is here, and Christianity won't live to see the end of this century, likely not even this decade - and all this feeble tinkering, with which e.g. this site is filled to the rim, all these people who are mostly and merely talking to themselves and desiring to be listened to - all those people will have no other choice than to go back to their librarian jobs and forever be silent because not only they were wrong about almost everything, but they also protested vehemently (and devoid of any and all arguments, as usual) against Absolute Thomasine Priority