Joseph ⟼ Pilate (the proof)

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Giuseppe
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Joseph ⟼ Pilate (the proof)

Post by Giuseppe »

Pilate was introduced as killer of Jesus because the latter is, via midrash, the son of Joseph.

The proof is very simple:
  • 1) The OT Joshua descends from the patriarch Joseph;
    The tradition of Messiah ben Joseph.
  • 2) the Messiah ben Joseph had to suffer and die.
  • 3) Josephus attests that the Samaritans identified themselves as "sons of Joseph".
  • 4) Josephus (and Luke 13:1 based on Josephus) attests that Pilate became famous even in Rome as killer of Samaritans.
  • 5) For the point (2), someone had to kill the Messiah ben Joseph.
  • Therefore: for the points (2) and (5), Pilate was the best historical candidate to assume the role of the killer of the Messiah ben Joseph, in the Gospel story.
Corollary: in the real history, Pilate never crucified a Jesus who was called the Christ.
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Giuseppe
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Re: Joseph ⟼ Pilate (the proof)

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  • Ezekiel 37:26 , in addition to be read possibly as a reference to a crucifixion able to pacify two different peoples:
    “Son of man, take a stick of wood and write on it, ‘Belonging to Judah and the Israelites associated with him.’ Then take another stick of wood, and write on it, ‘Belonging to Joseph (that is, to Ephraim) and all the Israelites associated with him'.

    ...mentions also a Judah in connection with Joseph in rival terms.
  • We know that the Jew Josephus approved the Pilate's action at least against the Samaritan false prophet. The Josephus's approval reflects the approval by all the people of Judah of a such repressive action.
  • The invention of a betrayal of Judas in the Gospel story may reflect Mark's awareness of such Jewish complicity with Pilate in his military action against the riotous Samaritans and their leader.
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neilgodfrey
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Re: Joseph ⟼ Pilate (the proof)

Post by neilgodfrey »

Hi Giuseppe, you asked me in another thread what I thought of your argument here. I like your points 1, 2, 5 the best. You will have to remind me where Josephus presents the Samaritans and "sons of Joseph" connection so I can see your point 3 in context. Unfortunately, I still have difficulties with your #4. I don't see the same evidence you do for Pilate becoming "famous" in Rome for his massacres of Samaritans. As you know, I don't think Josephus allows us to think he was ever put on trial.

Your reasoning is plausible. Possible. You might be right, but for myself I have to place the idea on the shelf with other possibilities to choose from.

(And I certainly don't see any evidence that the Samaritan leader was known to be a messianic figure. A prophet yes, but no more. But I acknowledge that you are not drawing attention to that particular point here.)
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Giuseppe
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Re: Joseph ⟼ Pilate (the proof)

Post by Giuseppe »

neilgodfrey wrote: Sun Oct 03, 2021 3:35 pmYou will have to remind me where Josephus presents the Samaritans and "sons of Joseph" connection so I can see your point 3 in context.
Bolland (from which I have derived the argument) refers to Jewish Antiquities 11:8, 6.

I have found this:
[The Samaritans] derive their genealogy from the posterity of Joseph, Ephraim and Manasseh.

https://penelope.uchicago.edu/josephus/ant-11.html
neilgodfrey wrote: Sun Oct 03, 2021 3:35 pm Unfortunately, I still have difficulties with your #4. I don't see the same evidence you do for Pilate becoming "famous" in Rome for his massacres of Samaritans. As you know, I don't think Josephus allows us to think he was ever put on trial.
I have written above that Pilate became famous as killer of Samaritans "even in Rome" but a such notoriety is not essential for my argument. Possibly in Alexandria (not coincidentially, where Bolland thinks the earliest gospel was written), see the evidence in Philo, Pilate could become famous as killer of Samaritans (Philo refers to his cruelty against the Jews). What matters is that we have in the entire Jewish Antiquities, in the entire period before 66-70, only Pilate as Roman persecutor of Samaritans.
neilgodfrey wrote: Sun Oct 03, 2021 3:35 pmYour reasoning is plausible. Possible. You might be right, but for myself I have to place the idea on the shelf with other possibilities to choose from.
note, as to possibilities, that a distinction has to be made between fixing Jesus in recent times and fixing Jesus precisely under Pilate.
  • To fix Jesus in recent times is an obvious effect of the need of making him a best friend of humanity in comparison to other Pagan gods. Or of introducing him as a new deity.
  • To fix Jesus precisely under Pilate has to require a more specific explanation.
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neilgodfrey
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Re: Joseph ⟼ Pilate (the proof)

Post by neilgodfrey »

Giuseppe wrote: Sun Oct 03, 2021 8:41 pmI have written above that Pilate became famous as killer of Samaritans "even in Rome" but a such notoriety is not essential for my argument.
Yes, it is a possibility.

It is best to avoid any reference to Pilate's reputation in Rome because that is entirely speculation and you are right to remove it from your argument.

Not proof, but a possibility on the basis of the evidence you provide.
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Giuseppe
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Re: Joseph ⟼ Pilate (the proof)

Post by Giuseppe »

Further evidence supporting my argument:
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=8428
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neilgodfrey
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Re: Joseph ⟼ Pilate (the proof)

Post by neilgodfrey »

Giuseppe wrote: Sun Oct 03, 2021 8:41 pm
neilgodfrey wrote: Sun Oct 03, 2021 3:35 pmYou will have to remind me where Josephus presents the Samaritans and "sons of Joseph" connection so I can see your point 3 in context.
Bolland (from which I have derived the argument) refers to Jewish Antiquities 11:8, 6.
Does Bolland actually discuss Pilate? If so, what page? Thanks
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Giuseppe
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Re: Joseph ⟼ Pilate (the proof)

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neilgodfrey wrote: Mon Oct 04, 2021 11:32 pm Does Bolland actually discuss Pilate? If so, what page? Thanks
Bolland in a first moment says that the invented life of Jesus was placed under Pilate because a his contemporary, such John the Baptist, was identified as the Prophet predicted by Moses.
Algemeen echter, of bijna algemeen, werd de Christophanie chronologisch vastgehecht aan het optreden van den doopenden boetprediker Johannes, van wien men wist dat hij onder Pontius Pilatus had geijverd, en dien velen aanmerkten als den propheet die door Mozes voorspeld was in Dt. 18:18.

Then, in a second moment, Bolland does the same argument I am doing here. Judge by yourself and note the difference:

In den heelen Juda(s) vermogen wij niets anders te zien dan eene legendaire persoonsverbeelding van het volk der Joden zelf, waarbij het dan van zelf de vraag wordt vanwaar de smet het eerst kan zijn geworpen. En Jēsoùs < Jēsjû < Jēsjûa' < Jehôsjûa' Jehosua, Jozua; Jozua nu is de groote legendaire figuur geweest waaraan Ephrájim, Israel, Samarië zich de vernietiging zijner oude vijanden in het door Jaho aangewezene land te binnen bracht. Volgens oude lezing, in Joh. 1:46 en 6:42 bewaard, is Jezus een zoon van Joseph; Joseph nu kan in het algemeen voor Jakob, Israel, Samarië staan, gelijk te zien is aan het parallele “Juda - Jozef” van Hez. 37:16, en ook betuigd wordt door Josephus, volgens wien de Samaritanen zich gaarne “zonen van Jozef” noemden. (J. Oudh. 11:8, 6). Dat deze zonen van Joseph in 35 op hun heiligen berg, waar zij zich onder een dweepzieken leider vereenigd hadden, op bevel van Pontius Pilatus om het leven zijn gebracht, weten wij van Josephus (J. Oudh. 18:4, 1-2) en dat “Juda” net de man was om zich over het afslachten van den “zoon van Jozef” te verheugen, weten wij ook. Bedenken wij nog dat een kruisdood van Jezus niet voorkomt bij Philo, Josephus, in echte oude Sanhedrinberichten, in de Openbaring (11:8 is geïnterpoleerd), in den brief aan de Romeinen en den Jakobusbrief, de Leer der Apostelen en den Herder van Hermas, dat de Joodsche “vijandige mensch” van Recogn. 1:70-71 den tooveraar Simon náást de apostelen stelt en de ook in den Thalmûd bekende Samaritaansche volkman Theudas (45) volgens Clemens Alexandrinus een bekende van Paulus is geweest (Strom. 7:17, 107), dan mogen wij ons wel afvragen of mogelijk niet de door Juda aan Pilatus verraden “Jēsjû bar José” eene Messiaansche hulpe Jaho's uit Samarië is geweest, die door de ondankbare Joden is versmaad, verloochend en in den steek gelaten. Wij staren hier weder op nevelen, raadselachtig, en eenen uitweg naar de “Galileesche” traditie zien wij hier niet, maar een feit is het dat in het begin der tweede eeuw de realiteit van Jezus' menschelijkheid en kruisdood door onjoodsche Christianoi (Chrestianoi?) is geloochend.

https://www.dbnl.org/tekst/_twe00218960 ... 1_0048.php


What do you think?
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neilgodfrey
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Re: Joseph ⟼ Pilate (the proof)

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Giuseppe wrote: Tue Oct 05, 2021 3:14 am
What do you think?
I think I want to take time to read more before commenting.
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Giuseppe
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Re: Joseph ⟼ Pilate (the proof)

Post by Giuseppe »

I note that Maguer argues very well for Joseph of Arimathea being the same Patriarch Joseph from which Jesus/Joshua is descendant.

The fact that precisely "Joseph of Arimathea", i.e. the patriarch Joseph (father of the Samaritans), is the only person, in all the Gospel, who allows for a new apparition of Pilate in the story, has to surprise us:

He went boldly to Pilate and asked for Jesus’ body. 44 Pilate was surprised to hear that he was already dead. Summoning the centurion, he asked him if Jesus had already died. 45 When he learned from the centurion that it was so, he gave the body to Joseph.

The connection between Pilate and the patriarch Joseph is so reinforced. It is as if the story was the following:

The patriarch Joseph went boldly to Pilate and asked for Jesus’ body. 44 Pilate was surprised to hear that he was already dead. Summoning the centurion, he asked him if Jesus had already died. 45 When he learned from the centurion that it was so, he gave the body to the patriarch Joseph.

The impression is that the stronger and more powerful here is not Pilate, but the patriarch Joseph: the body (=a collective symbol) of Jesus has to be, must be!, property of the patriarch Joseph, pace Pilate.

The collective body of Jesus, meant as exclusive property of the patriarch Joseph, and only of him, can only represent all the "sons of Joseph". Hence Pilate figures in the story, he is there, only because, in the real History, Pilate killed a good number of "sons of Joseph": the Samaritans.
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