John 8

[rgprice]

I find this to be one of the most interesting parts of John.

37 I know that you are Abraham’s descendants; yet you are seeking to kill Me, because My word has no place in you. 38 I speak of the things which I have seen with My Father; therefore you also do the things which you heard from your father.”

39 They answered and said to Him, “Abraham is our father.” Jesus said to them, “If you are Abraham’s children, do the deeds of Abraham. 40 But as it is, you are seeking to kill Me, a man who has told you the truth, which I heard from God; this Abraham did not do. 41 You are doing the deeds of your father.” They said to Him, “We were not born as a result of sexual immorality; we have one Father: God.” 42 Jesus said to them, “If God were your Father, you would love Me, for I came forth from God and am here; for I have not even come on My own, but He sent Me. 43 Why do you not understand what I am saying? It is because you cannot listen to My word. 44 You are of your father the devil, and you want to do the desires of your father. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth because there is no truth in him. Whenever he tells a lie, he speaks from his own nature, because he is a liar and the father of lies. 45 But because I say the truth, you do not believe Me. 46 Which one of you convicts Me of sin? If I speak truth, why do you not believe Me? 47 The one who is of God hears the words of God; for this reason you do not hear them, because you are not of God.”

48 The Jews answered and said to Him, “Do we not rightly say that You are a Samaritan, and You have a demon?” 49 Jesus answered, “I do not have a demon; on the contrary, I honor My Father, and you dishonor Me. 50 But I am not seeking My glory; there is One who seeks it, and judges. 51 Truly, truly I say to you, if anyone follows My word, he will never see death.” 52 The Jews said to Him, “Now we know that You have a demon. Abraham died, and the prophets as well; and yet You say, ‘If anyone follows My word, he will never taste of death.’ 53 You are not greater than our father Abraham, who died, are You? The prophets died too. Whom do You make Yourself out to be?” 54 Jesus answered, “If I glorify Myself, My glory is nothing; it is My Father who glorifies Me, of whom you say, ‘He is our God’; 55 and you have not come to know Him, but I know Him. And if I say that I do not know Him, I will be a liar like you; but I do know Him, and I follow His word. 56 Your father Abraham was overjoyed that he would see My day, and he saw it and rejoiced.” 57 So the Jews said to Him, “You are not yet fifty years old, and You have seen Abraham?” 58 Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly I say to you, before Abraham was born, I am.” 59 Therefore they picked up stones to throw at Him, but Jesus hid Himself and left the temple grounds.

I'm not entirely sure what to make of all of this.

What's clear is that this is saying that the devil is the father of the Jews. I'm not clear as to whether this is saying that Abraham is of the devil or not.

This looks almost like something that could come from a Marcionite, but not exactly. Marcion or Apelles would not refer to the devil I don't think.

Like Marcion, however, this associates judgment with evil, which is contrary to the orthodox position. The Jesus of John does not judge, he just provides forgiveness and eternal life. This has the devil as the judge. Marcion had the Jewish God as the judge. Many parts of John look like a Marcionite account in which "the devil" has taken the place of the Jewish Creator God. But in the Marcionite scheme, the Creator of the world was also the judge and was evil. In John Jesus is the Creator of the world, but he isn't a judge.

Most of the commentaries on this I don't find useful because they fail to address the Marcionite context in which John was likely produced and how it reflects the debates taking place in the middle of the second century, since even those who put a "late" date on John like to place it around 120 at the latest.

[Giuseppe]

“We were not born as a result of sexual immorality; we have one Father: God.”

The accusation by Jesus against the Jews is that the Jews are the sons of the fornication between the demiurge and the first woman Eve. In that way Abel was born, also, according to some anti-demiurgist sect.

[Giuseppe]

Turmel argues that this is an anti-marcionite interpolation:

56 Your father Abraham was overjoyed that he would see My day, and he saw it and rejoiced.” 57 So the Jews said to Him, “You are not yet fifty years old, and You have seen Abraham?” 58 Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly I say to you, before Abraham was born, I am.”

if Abraham is a friend of Jesus, then YHWH is friend of Jesus, which is not true for the original anti-YHWH author.

[Giuseppe]

“We were not born as a result of sexual immorality; we have one Father: God.”

The accusation by Jesus against the Jews is that the Jews are the sons of the fornication between the demiurge and the first woman Eve. In that way Abel was born, also, according to some anti-demiurgist sect.

Cain was born from the Serpent (=the Unknown Father) and Eve. Hence Cain is the Son of Man, i.e Jesus.

This is evidence that the original author was a Cainite.

[Charles Wilson]

Hello RGP --

May I humbly suggest that this is a Titus Passage, not far removed from an "Actual" event (or In-Court Lore), reworked into the language of John.
There is even a small clue linked elsewhere:

John 4: 9 (RSV):

[9] The Samaritan woman said to him, "How is it that you, a Jew, ask a drink of me, a woman of Samar'ia?" For Jews have no dealings with Samaritans.

Compare with:

John 8: 48 (RSV):

[48] The Jews answered him, "Are we not right in saying that you are a Samaritan and have a demon?"

We are led to believe that the "Jews" cannot recognize "Samaritans" and Samaritans cannot recognize Jews, which might be fairly laughable if not for the seriousness of it all. A third possibility is that the Roman Titus looks different enough from the Locals of both groups that he is mistaken in regards to identity all the way around.

I invite you to read these passages from the Roman Perspective. There are many in Judea who still believe that they cannot be conquered by Rome and are awaiting Divine Intervention (See: The Blind Man who Sees Trees Moving like People: "...He saw things clearly"..."Do not even go back to the village...")

This is Titus (...if not Vespasian). Vespasian will march on Rome to starve it out, Titus will finish the job in Jerusalem. These Jews and Samaritans are but a back drop for the Civil War that will soon see the end of the Julio-Claudians and the Rise of the Flavians.

These sections appear to be very close to possible plausible dialogues, reworked for the John Crowd a decade or so after the death of Domitian.

CW

Addendum:

I want to add the completed Section from Chapter 4. It is important!

[5] So he came to a city of Samar'ia, called Sy'char, near the field that Jacob gave to his son Joseph.
[6] Jacob's well was there, and so Jesus, wearied as he was with his journey, sat down beside the well. It was about the sixth hour.
[7] There came a woman of Samar'ia to draw water. Jesus said to her, "Give me a drink."
[8] For his disciples had gone away into the city to buy food.
[9] The Samaritan woman said to him, "How is it that you, a Jew, ask a drink of me, a woman of Samar'ia?" For Jews have no dealings with Samaritans.
[10] Jesus answered her, "If you knew the gift of God, and who it is that is saying to you, `Give me a drink,' you would have asked him, and he would have given you living water."
[11] The woman said to him, "Sir, you have nothing to draw with, and the well is deep; where do you get that living water?
[12] Are you greater than our father Jacob, who gave us the well, and drank from it himself, and his sons, and his cattle?"
[13] Jesus said to her, "Every one who drinks of this water will thirst again,
[14] but whoever drinks of the water that I shall give him will never thirst; the water that I shall give him will become in him a spring of water welling up to eternal life."
[15] The woman said to him, "Sir, give me this water, that I may not thirst, nor come here to draw."

"Sychar" should be examined and esp. verse 6. The disciples went into the city to buy food. Then:

"...he would have given you living water."

The woman tells of past Glories - Usta' be that Jacob "...drank from it himself, and his sons, and his cattle..."! Now it is almost dry and to get even a gourd of water the depths of the deep well must be plumbed. "...'N this guy promises Living Water! Like mebbe even a ragin' river of water!"

Berakoth 28A:

Rabban Gamaliel also did not absent himself from the Beth ha-Midrash a single hour, as we have learnt: On that day Judah, an Ammonite proselyte, came before them in the Beth ha-Midrash. He said to them: Am I permitted to enter the assembly?9 R. Joshua said to him: You are permitted to enter the congregation. Said Rabban Gamaliel to him: Is it not already laid down, At Ammonite or a Moabite shall not enter into the assembly of the Lord?10 R. Joshua replied to him: Do Ammon and Moab still reside in their original homes? Sennacherib king of Assyria long ago went up and mixed up all the nations, as it says, I have removed the bounds of the peoples and have robbed their treasures and have brought down as one mighty their inhabitants;11 and whatever strays [from a group] is assumed to belong to the larger section of the group.12 Said Rabban Gamaliel to him: But has it not been said: But afterward I will bring back the captivity of the children of Ammon, saith the Lord,13 so that they have already returned? To which R. Joshua replied: And has it not been said, And I will turn the captivity of My people Israel,14 and they have not yet returned? Forthwith they permitted him to enter the congregation. Rabban Gamaliel thereupon said: This being the case,15 I will go and apologize to R. Joshua. When he reached his house he saw that the walls were black. He said to him: From the walls of your house it is apparent that you are a charcoal-burner.16 He replied: Alas for the generation of which you are the leader, seeing that you know nothing of the troubles of the scholars, their struggles to support and sustain themselves! He said to him: I apologize.17 forgive me. He paid no attention to him. Do it, he said, out of respect for my father. He then became reconciled to him. They said: Who will go and tell the Rabbis? A certain fuller said to them: I will go. R. Joshua sent a message to the Beth hamidrash saying: Let him who is accustomed to wear the robe wear it;18 shall he who is not accustomed to wear the robe19 say to him who is accustomed to wear it, Take off your robe and I will put it on? Said R. Akiba to the Rabbis: Lock the doors so that the servants of Rabban Gamaliel should not come and upset the Rabbis.20 Said R. Joshua: I had better get up and go to them. He came and knocked at the door. He said to them: Let the sprinkler son of a sprinkler21 sprinkle; shall he who is neither a sprinkler nor the son of a sprinkler say to a sprinkler son of a sprinkler, Your water is cave water22 and your ashes are oven ashes?23 Said R. Akiba to him: R. Joshua, you have received your apology, have we done anything except out of regard for your honour? Tomorrow morning you and I will wait on him.24 They said: How shall we do? Shall we depose him [R. Eleazar b. Azariah]? We have a rule that we may raise an object to a higher grade of sanctity but must not degrade it to a lower.25 If we let one Master preach on one Sabbath and one on the next, this will cause jealousy. Let therefore Rabban Gamaliel preach three Sabbaths and R. Eleazar b. Azariah one Sabbath. And it is in reference to this that a Master said: 'Whose Sabbath was it? It was the Sabbath of R. Eleazar b. Azariah'.26 And that disciple27 was R. Simeon b. Yohai..."

"...Your water is cave water²² and your ashes are oven ashes?²³..."

Note 22: And not living water as required, v. Num. XIX, 27 [sic: verse 17, not 27]:
[17] For the unclean they shall take some ashes of the burnt sin offering, and running water shall be added in a vessel;

Note 23: "...And not from the Red Heifer."

Deep, Deep. DEEP!!!

It has all faced Transvaluation and it is not at all clear who was working behind the Scenes here!

PPS: We do know that Zakkai was a Scholar of the Book of Numbers, so...

[Irish1975]

48 The Jews answered and said to him, “Do we not rightly say that you are a Samaritan, and you have a demon?

Is this an allusion to Simon of Samaria? Justin writes (1st Apology, 26):

And, thirdly, because after Christ's ascension into heaven the devils put forward certain men who said that they themselves were gods; and they were not only not persecuted by you, but even deemed worthy of honours. There was a Samaritan, Simon, a native of the village called Gitto, who in the reign of Claudius Caesar, and in your royal city of Rome, did mighty acts of magic, by virtue of the art of the devils operating in him. He was considered a god, and as a god was honoured by you with a statue, which statue was erected on the river Tiber, between the two bridges, and bore this inscription, in the language of Rome:--

"Simoni Deo Sancto,"

"To Simon the holy God." And almost all the Samaritans, and a few even of other nations, worship him, and acknowledge him as the first god; and a woman, Helena, who went about with him at that time, and had formerly been a prostitute, they say is the first idea generated by him. And a man, Meander, also a Samaritan, of the town Capparetaea, a disciple of Simon, and inspired by devils, we know to have deceived many while he was in Antioch by his magical art. He persuaded those who adhered to him that they should never die, and even now there are some living who hold this opinion of his. And there is Marcion, a man of Pontus, who is even at this day alive, and teaching his disciples to believe in some other god greater than the Creator. And he, by the aid of the devils, has caused many of every nation to speak blasphemies, and to deny that God is the maker of this universe, and to assert that some other being, greater than He, has done greater works. All who take their opinions from these men, are, as we before said, called Christians; just as also those who do not agree with the philosophers in their doctrines, have yet in common with them the name of philosophers given to them. And whether they perpetrate those fabulous and shameful deeds--the upsetting of the lamp, and promiscuous intercourse, and eating human flesh--we know not; but we do know that they are neither persecuted nor put to death by you, at least on account of their opinions.

1. "Samaritan"
2. Possessed by a demon
3. Claim to be a divinity

[lsayre]

As to the relevant section you quote from John chapter 8, the Richmond Lattimore and April DeConick "literal" translations peak my interest. I believe they both quite independently come to the conclusion (from memory here) that more properly the translations are: "You are of the father of the Devil.", and "Whenever he tells a lie, he speaks from his own nature, because he is a liar and so is his father."

[lsayre]

Richmond Lattimore is highly regarded for his English translations of the Iliad and Odyssey. He knew his way around the Greek language.

[rgprice]

As to the relevant section you quote from John chapter 8, the Richmond Lattimore and April DeConick "literal" translations peak my interest. I believe they both quite independently come to the conclusion (from memory here) that more properly the translations are: "You are of the father of the Devil.", and "Whenever he tells a lie, he speaks from his own nature, because he is a liar and so is his father."

Interesting. The YLT doesn't translate it that way. I'd have to defer to someone with more knowledge of Greek and the early manuscripts to assess this.

[rgprice]

48 The Jews answered and said to him, “Do we not rightly say that you are a Samaritan, and you have a demon?

Is this an allusion to Simon of Samaria? Justin writes (1st Apology, 26):

1. "Samaritan"
2. Possessed by a demon
3. Claim to be a divinity

That kind of makes sense. This would be the writer of this passage having the Jews conflating Jesus with Simon. That kinda make sense, though I'm not sure what else to draw from it, other than it explains why they call him a Samaritan.