Why the descent in Capernaum matters

Discussion about the New Testament, apocrypha, gnostics, church fathers, Christian origins, historical Jesus or otherwise, etc.
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Giuseppe
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Why the descent in Capernaum matters

Post by Giuseppe »

Isn't it correct to claim that a 'historical Jesus' was born from the Marcion's odium creationis ?

Giuseppe wrote: Thu Oct 14, 2021 4:45 am Capernaum as the first place touched by Jesus in the incipit of Marcion finds his direct explanation, according to the first commentary (Heracleon), in Capernaum being allegory of the lower heavens. It is easy to develop an entire story from a so simple "fact".

In Mark we don't find an equally simple explanation of why Capernaum.

ADDENDA:

It is easy also to see why the 'lower heavens' were placed precisely on earth, in 'Capernaum of Galilee', by Marcion. The 'lower heavens', for them, the archontic territory, had to be more deliberately confused by anti-demiurgists, with the earth itself, the creation of YHWH, to point out its evil nature. The notice that the Son of the Unknown Father descends directly on this earth, addressed to people who placed the original descent of Jesus "in the air" (=outer space), is not a good news for the consideration of this earth and this creation: it meant the equivalence, tout court, under the sign of an identical ontological negativity, between air and earth.

In syllogistic terms:
  • 1) Jesus was crucified in outer space, where Satan rules.
  • 2) Jesus is now said descended in Capernaum.
  • 3) Heracleon: Capernaum means 'place of desolation', where Satan rules.
  • 4) the earth itself is where Satan rules.
  • 5) therefore: the creation itself is satanic, hence the creator (YHWH) is evil.
If the 'god of this world' is the creator himself, for Marcion, then it was logically 100% expected that the death of Jesus had to be placed by Marcion on this world, on this earth.
rgprice
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Re: Why the descent in Capernaum matters

Post by rgprice »

I don't know that I follow all of this, but I do agree that Marcionism was responsible for popularizing the idea that Jesus was a real person (or that there there had been an actual historical appearance of Jesus on earth). This is because Marcion's theology required that Jesus reveal himself on earth, since his Father was unknown and no information about him could have been relied by prophecies since he was an unknown god.

An unknown could only reveal himself, he couldn't be revealed by ancient prophetic writings.
Giuseppe
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Location: Italy

Re: Why the descent in Capernaum matters

Post by Giuseppe »

rgprice wrote: Thu Oct 14, 2021 8:54 amThis is because Marcion's theology required that Jesus reveal himself on earth, since his Father was unknown and no information about him could have been relied by prophecies since he was an unknown god.
good point. That is another great impulse to euhemerization being started by Cerdon, Marcion et alia.

My point is different: if the place of the crucifixion was already connected, among early Christians, with the kingdom of Satan (in outer space, obviously), then an invented earthly crucifixion implied eo ipso that Satan is the same creator and "god of this world", i. e. the creator god.
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