Questions about Dating 1 Clement

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ABuddhist
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Re: Questions about Dating 1 Clement

Post by ABuddhist »

perseusomega9 wrote: Sun Oct 17, 2021 12:56 pm
andrewcriddle wrote: Sun Oct 17, 2021 11:01 am One should note that Joseph Turmel's claim that Hermas was the brother of Pope Pius is mainly based on the Muratorian canon list.
IF the modern scholars who date this list c 300 CE (rather than c 200 CE) are correct then its value as historical evidence for the authorship of Hermas would be much reduced. (I'm not saying they are right, it is a very difficult question.)

Andrew Criddle
On the contrary, I think it validates how the complete ambiguity involved with dating a lot of these texts, especially with respect to each other in the modern paradigm, is quite instructive.
Furthermore, the overwhelmingly Christian biases (in past scholarship even if not in present confession) of the reputable scholarship about these matters would seem to encourage earliest dating as most favoured.
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neilgodfrey
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Re: Questions about Dating 1 Clement

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ABuddhist wrote: Mon Oct 18, 2021 7:06 am

Furthermore, the overwhelmingly Christian biases (in past scholarship even if not in present confession) of the reputable scholarship about these matters would seem to encourage earliest dating as most favoured.

Speaking of establishing early dates . . . When we heard that Trump, twenty years after the event, was setting it in the public record for the first time that he himself had been rescued by firemen on 9/11, I was reminded of the first documented record that Martin Luther committed suicide. It was twenty years after his death that a documented "eyewitness" account of Martin Luther's suicide appeared in public. It was a fake. Twenty years is a long time twixt event and first record of it in history.
Last edited by neilgodfrey on Tue Oct 19, 2021 12:52 pm, edited 2 times in total.
andrewcriddle
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Re: Questions about Dating 1 Clement

Post by andrewcriddle »

andrewcriddle wrote: Sun Oct 17, 2021 11:01 am One should note that Joseph Turmel's claim that Hermas was the brother of Pope Pius is mainly based on the Muratorian canon list.
IF the modern scholars who date this list c 300 CE (rather than c 200 CE) are correct then its value as historical evidence for the authorship of Hermas would be much reduced. (I'm not saying they are right, it is a very difficult question.)

Andrew Criddle
One possible explanation of the claim that Hermas, the author of the Shepherd or Pastor, was the brother of Pius is a confusion arising from a tradition (attested in later sources) that Pius had a brother called Pastor. See viewtopic.php?f=3&t=7285&p=113700#p113700 (although the idea does not originate with Edmundson).

Prima Facie it may be more likely that someone with the Latin name Pius would have a brother with the Latin name Pastor rather than one with the Greek name Hermas.

Andrew Criddle
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neilgodfrey
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Re: Questions about Dating 1 Clement

Post by neilgodfrey »

There would be something strange going on or not going on if any of Tumel's arguments from over a century ago have not been subject to revision. The bigger question is how we read and assess the information contained in our sources. Nothing should be taken at face value. That's a truism that applies across many fields. A historical approach subjects everything to the tests of validation via external or independent sources. That's not hyper-scepticism. It's basic method 101 that will be found in pretty much any book addressing historical methods.

Biblical studies has the problem of being the heritage of an ideology that is based on a naive reading of fundamental sources. It is not being anti-religious to acknowledge this fact or to attempt to redress it. It is, rather, an attempt to set ideologically grounded models aside and test everything to see what stands by the tried and accepted methods that are the bread and butter in classics and history departments but too often considered outright poison ("hyper-scepticism" or simply merely "sceptical" as if that were a bad word) in many areas of biblical studies.
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neilgodfrey
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Re: Questions about Dating 1 Clement

Post by neilgodfrey »

ABuddhist wrote: Mon Oct 18, 2021 7:06 am Furthermore, the overwhelmingly Christian biases (in past scholarship even if not in present confession) of the reputable scholarship about these matters would seem to encourage earliest dating as most favoured.

Speaking of establishing early dates . . . When we heard that Trump, twenty years after the event, was setting it in the public record for the first time that he himself had been rescued by firemen on 9/11, I was reminded of the first documented record that Martin Luther committed suicide. It was twenty years after his death that a documented "eyewitness" account of Martin Luther's suicide appeared in public. It was a fake. Twenty years is a long time twixt event and first record of it in the sources.
schillingklaus
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Re: Questions about Dating 1 Clement

Post by schillingklaus »

Already van den Bergh van Eysinga proved that the epistle is a late forgery ("Onderzoek naar de echtheid van Clemens' eersten brief aan de Corinthiers" ).

The absence of gospel stories does by absolutely no means the ignorance of them.

The reason for the interest in forging the epistle is that of feigning an early authority of the Roman church over the churches in other parts of the empire, which then enables the author to request the obedience of the churches outside Rome and follow the Roman dogm of a strict clerical hierarchy..
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Irish1975
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Re: Questions about Dating 1 Clement

Post by Irish1975 »

I have a question for anyone who advocates the "conventional" dating of 1 Clement to the reign of Domitian (90s).

What specific evidence in the text can you cite in support of this view? I mean the most specific internal evidence.

Thanks!

(If this discussion goes anywhere, we can address external factors later on.)
lclapshaw
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Re: Questions about Dating 1 Clement

Post by lclapshaw »

Irish1975 wrote: Sun Jan 01, 2023 11:54 am I have a question for anyone who advocates the "conventional" dating of 1 Clement to the reign of Domitian (90s).

What specific evidence in the text can you cite in support of this view? I mean the most specific internal evidence.

Thanks!

(If this discussion goes anywhere, we can address external factors later on.)
IMO, there are none. The 90s are just guesswork based on wishful thinking. Trying to have linear continuation. Nothing more.

Hell, we can't even say who even wrote it.
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GakuseiDon
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Re: Questions about Dating 1 Clement

Post by GakuseiDon »

Dr Richard Carrier published an article a couple of weeks ago on his website where he argues that 1 Clement was written in the 60s CE:

"How We Can Know 1 Clement Was Actually Written in the 60s AD"
https://www.richardcarrier.info/archives/22313

From part of Carrier's conclusion:

In my study I took a neutral position. “I will not rely on this,” I wrote, but instead “treat it as if it were written either in the early 60s (as I think is most probable) or in the mid 90s (as is traditional and most generally assumed)” (OHJ, p. 273). But there really is no basis for continuing to accept the traditional date of 1 Clement of 95 A.D. That is based on late, unsourced, and implausible legends; indeed legends based on factually false claims about the context of its writing (there was no Domitianic persecution that it could be reacting to; there was no bishopric when 1 Clement was written) and unprovable conjectures (we don’t reliably know anyone named Clement wrote it, much less a specific Clement in a specific decade). By contrast, 1 Clement’s complete ignorance of the contents of the Gospels and the Jewish War and its outcomes unquestionably dates it prior to both; while its mention of Paul’s recent death ensures it post-dates his authentic letters, which were completed by the end of the 50s, leaving the early 60s as the only possible date of 1 Clement’s writing.

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MrMacSon
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Re: Questions about Dating 1 Clement

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"How We Can Know 1 Clement Was Actually Written in the 60s AD"
https://www.richardcarrier.info/archives/22313

From part of Carrier's conclusion:

... 1 Clement’s complete ignorance of the contents of the Gospels and the Jewish War and its outcomes unquestionably dates it prior to both; while its mention of Paul’s recent death ensures it post-dates his authentic letters, which were completed by the end of the 50s, leaving the early 60s as the only possible date of 1 Clement’s writing.


1 Clement isn't about then-contemporary Judaism or Jews, so the fact it doesn't mention the Jewish War[s] is probably irrelevant.

It does reference, of course, like much Christian literature, Jewish theological history as per the Hebrew Bible/LXX/Pentateuch/Hexateuch, etc., but only to frame Jesus and [early] Christian theology.

It starts

Owing, dear brethren, to the sudden and successive calamitous events which have happened to ourselves, we feel that we have been somewhat tardy in turning our attention to the points respecting which you consulted us; and especially to that shameful and detestable sedition, utterly abhorrent to the elect of God, which a few rash and self-confident persons have kindled to such a pitch of frenzy, that your venerable and illustrious name, worthy to be universally loved, has suffered grievous injury. For who ever dwelt even for a short time among you, and did not find your faith to be as fruitful of virtue as it was firmly established? Who did not admire the sobriety and moderation of your godliness in Christ?
https://www.earlychristianwritings.com/ ... berts.html


Chapter 3 ends:

.... righteousness and peace are now far departed from you, inasmuch as every one abandons the fear of God, and is become blind in His faith, neither walks in the ordinances of His appointment, nor acts a part becoming a Christian, but walks after his own wicked lusts, resuming the practice of an unrighteous and ungodly envy, by which death itself entered into the world.


Chapter 4 is an appeal to early Jewish historiography:

For thus it is written: "And it came to pass after certain days, that Cain brought of the fruits of the earth a sacrifice to God; and Abel also brought of the firstlings of his sheep, and of the fat thereof. And God had respect to Abel and to his offerings, but Cain and his sacrifices He did not regard. And Cain was deeply grieved, and his countenance fell. And God said to Cain, Why are you grieved, and why is your countenance fallen? If you offer rightly, but do not divide rightly, have you not sinned? Be at peace: your offering returns to yourself, and you shall again possess it. And Cain said to Abel his brother, Let us go into the field. And it came to pass, while they were in the field, that Cain rose up against Abel his brother, and killed him." You see, brethren, how envy and jealousy led to the murder of a brother. Through envy, also, our father Jacob fled from the face of Esau his brother. Envy made Joseph be persecuted unto death, and to come into bondage. Envy compelled Moses to flee from the face of Pharaoh king of Egypt, when he heard these words from his fellow countryman, "Who made you a judge or a ruler over us? Will you kill me, as you killed the Egyptian yesterday?" On account of envy, Aaron and Miriam had to make their home outside of the camp. Envy brought down Dathan and Abiram alive to Hades, through the sedition which they excited against God's servant Moses. Through envy, David underwent the hatred not only of foreigners, but was also persecuted by Saul king of Israel.


Chapter 5 switches back to "the most recent spiritual heroes", Peter and Paul:

But not to dwell upon ancient examples, let us come to the most recent spiritual heroes. Let us take the noble examples furnished in our own generation. Through envy and jealousy, the greatest and most righteous pillars [of the Church] have been persecuted and put to death. Let us set before our eyes the illustrious apostles. Peter, through unrighteous envy, endured not one or two, but numerous labours, and when he had finally suffered martyrdom, departed to the place of glory due to him. Owing to envy, Paul also obtained the reward of patient endurance, after being seven times thrown into captivity, compelled to flee, and stoned. After preaching both in the east and west, he gained the illustrious reputation due to his faith, having taught righteousness to the whole world, and come to the extreme limit of the west, and suffered martyrdom under the prefects. Thus was he removed from the world, and went into the holy place, having proved himself a striking example of patience.


Chater 6 is a bit vague.
Chapters 7 mixes it up but the subsequent chapters appeal to Jewish narratives:


7. ... Let us look steadfastly to the blood of Christ, and see how precious that blood is to God, which, having been shed for our salvation, has set the grace of repentance before the whole world. Let us turn to every age that has passed, and learn that, from generation to generation, the Lord has granted a place of repentance to all who would be converted to Him. Noah preached repentance, and as many as listened to him were saved. Jonah proclaimed destruction to the Ninevites; but they, repenting of their sins, propitiated God by prayer, and obtained salvation, although they were aliens [to the covenant] of God.

8. The ministers of the grace of God have, by the Holy Spirit, spoken of repentance; and the Lord of all things has himself declared with an oath regarding it, "As I live, says the Lord, I desire not the death of the sinner, but rather his repentance;" adding, moreover, this gracious declaration: "Repent O house of Israel, of your iniquity. Say to the children of My people, Though your sins reach from earth to heaven, and though they be redder than scarlet, and blacker than sackcloth, if you turn to Me with your whole heart, and say, Father! I will listen to you, as to a holy people" ...

9. Abraham, called "the friend," was found faithful, inasmuch as he obeyed the words of God. He, in the exercise of obedience, went out from his own country, and from his kindred, and from his father's house, in order that, by forsaking a small territory, and a weak family, and an insignificant house, he might inherit the promises of God ...

12. On account of her faith and hospitality, Rahab the harlot was saved. For when spies were sent by Joshua, the son of Nun, to Jericho, the king of the country ascertained that they had come to spy out their land, and sent men to seize them, in order that, when taken, they might be put to death. But the hospitable Rahab received them, and hid them on the roof of her house under some stalks of flax ...



Chapter 13 brings in the Lord Jesus:

Let us therefore, brethren, be of humble mind, laying aside all haughtiness, and pride, and foolishness, and angry feelings; and let us act according to that which is written (for the Holy Spirit says, "Let not the wise man glory in his wisdom, neither let the mighty man glory in his might, neither let the rich man Story in his riches; but let him that glories glory in the Lord, in diligently seeking Him, and doing judgment and righteousness" ), being especially mindful of the words of the Lord Jesus which He spoke, teaching us meekness and long-suffering ...

Chapters 14 and 15 are more vague waffle.

Chapter 16 is quite something:


For Christ is of those who are humble-minded, and not of those who exalt themselves over His flock. Our Lord Jesus Christ, the Sceptre of the majesty of God, did not come in the pomp of pride or arrogance, although He might have done so, but in a lowly condition, as the Holy Spirit had declared regarding Him. For He says,
  • "Lord, who has believed our report, and to whom is the arm of the Lord revealed? We have declared [our message] in His presence: He is, as it were, a child, and like a root in thirsty ground; He has no form nor glory, yea, we saw Him, and He had no form nor comeliness; but His form was without eminence, yea, deficient in comparison with the [ordinary] form of men. He is a man exposed to stripes and suffering, and acquainted with the endurance of grief: for His countenance was turned away; He was despised, and not esteemed. He bears our iniquities, and is in sorrow for our sakes; yet we supposed that [on His own account] He was exposed to labour, and stripes, and affliction. But He was wounded for our transgressions, and bruised for our iniquities. The chastisement of our peace was upon Him, and by His stripes we were healed. All we, like sheep, have gone astray; [every] man has wandered in his own way; and the Lord has delivered Him up for our sins, while He in the midst of His sufferings opens not His mouth. He was brought as a sheep to the slaughter, and as a lamb before her shearer is dumb, so He opens not His mouth. In His humiliation His judgment was taken away; who shall declare His generation? For His life is taken from the earth. For the transgressions of my people was He brought down to death. And I will give the wicked for His sepulchre, and the rich for His death, because He did no iniquity, nor was guile found in His mouth. And the Lord is pleased to purify Him by stripes. If you make an offering for sin, your soul shall see a long-lived seed. And the Lord is pleased to relieve Him of the affliction of His soul, to show Him light, and to form Him with understanding, to justify the Just One who ministers well to many; and He Himself shall carry their sins. On this account He shall inherit many, and shall divide the spoil of the strong; because His soul was delivered to death, and He was reckoned among the transgressors, and He bare the sins of many, and for their sins was He delivered."
And again He says,
  • "I am a worm, and no man; a reproach of men, and despised of the people. All who see Me have derided Me; they have spoken with their lips; they have wagged their head, [saying] He hoped in God, let Him deliver Him, let Him save Him, since He delights in Him."
You see, beloved, what is the example which has been given us; for if the Lord thus humbled Himself, what shall we do who have through Him come under the yoke of His grace?


Where is that "quoted" text from ??


Chapter 17 starts -

Let us be imitators also of those who in goat-skins and sheep-skins went about proclaiming the coming of Christ; I mean Elijah, Elisha, and Ezekiel among the prophets, with those others to whom a like testimony is borne [in Scripture] ...

- and goes on to invoke Abraham, Job and Moses.

Chapter 18 invokes David as an example of humility.

Chapters 19-23 are general waffle, though have these excerpts:


20 ends: "He does good to all, but most abundantly to us who have fled for refuge to His compassions through Jesus Christ our Lord, to whom be glory and majesty for ever and ever. Amen. xxxxx "

21: "... Let us reverence the Lord Jesus Christ, whose blood was given for us ... Let your children be partakers of true Christian training; let them learn of how great avail humility is with God -- how much the spirit of pure affection can prevail with Him -- how excellent and great His fear is, and how it saves all those who walk in it with a pure mind ... "

22: "Now the faith which is in Christ confirms all these [admonitions]. For He Himself by the Holy Ghost thus addresses us: "Come, you children, listen to Me; I will teach you the fear of the Lord. What man is he that desires life, and loves to see good days? ... "



Chapter 24 mentions a resurrection:

Let us consider, beloved, how the Lord continually proves to us that there shall be a future resurrection, of which He has rendered the Lord Jesus Christ the first-fruits by raising Him from the dead. Let us contemplate, beloved, the resurrection which is at all times taking place. Day and night declare to us a resurrection. The night sinks to sleep, and the day arises; the day [again] departs, and the night comes on. Let us behold the fruits [of the earth], how the sowing of grain takes place. The sower goes forth, and casts it into the ground; and the seed being thus scattered, though dry and naked when it fell upon the earth, is gradually dissolved. Then out of its dissolution the mighty power of the providence of the Lord raises it up again, and from one seed many arise and bring forth fruit.


Chapter 25 talks about the "that wonderful sign [of the resurrection] which takes place in Eastern lands" (a worm from a dead bird):

... that is, in Arabia and the countries round about. There is a certain bird which is called a phoenix. This is the only one of its kind, and lives five hundred years. And when the time of its dissolution draws near that it must die, it builds itself a nest of frankincense, and myrrh, and other spices, into which, when the time is fulfilled, it enters and dies. But as the flesh decays a certain kind of worm is produced, which, being nourished by the juices of the dead bird, brings forth feathers. Then, when it has acquired strength, it takes up that nest in which are the bones of its parent, and bearing these it passes from the land of Arabia into Egypt, to the city called Heliopolis. And, in open day, flying in the sight of all men, it places them on the altar of the sun, and having done this, hastens back to its former abode. The priests then inspect the registers of the dates, and find that it has returned exactly as the five hundredth year was completed.

Chapters 26 and 27 riff off chapter 25:


26
Do we then deem it any great and wonderful thing for the Maker of all things to raise up again those who have piously served Him in the assurance of a good faith, when even by a bird He shows us the mightiness of His power to fulfil His promise? For [the Scripture] says in a certain place, "You shall raise me up, and I shall confess to You;" and again, "I laid down, and slept; I awaked, because You are with me;" and again, Job says, "you shall raise up this flesh of mine, which has suffered all these things."

27 starts:
Having then this hope, let our souls be bound to Him who is faithful in His promises, and just in His judgments ... Let His faith therefore be stirred up again within us, and let us consider that all things are nigh unto Him. By the word of His might He established all things, and by His word He can overthrow them ...


Chapter 42 is more firm about "the resurrection of our Lord Jesus Christ" assuring the apostles:

The apostles have preached the Gospel to us from the Lord Jesus Christ; Jesus Christ has done so from God. Christ therefore was sent forth by God, and the apostles by Christ. Both these appointments, then, were made in an orderly way, according to the will of God. Having therefore received their orders, and being fully assured by the resurrection of our Lord Jesus Christ, and established in the word of God, with full assurance of the Holy Ghost, they went forth proclaiming that the kingdom of God was at hand. And thus preaching through countries and cities, they appointed the first-fruits [of their labours], having first proved them by the Spirit, to be bishops and deacons of those who should afterwards believe. Nor was this any new thing, since indeed many ages before it was written concerning bishops and deacons. For thus says the Scripture a certain place, "I will appoint their bishops in righteousness, and their deacons in faith."

Chapter 38 started:

.Let our whole body, then, be preserved in, Christ Jesus ...


There's a second reference to Paul and a reference to a Cephas, separate to the reference to Peter, in Chapter 47:

Take up the epistle of the blessed Apostle Paul. What did he write to you at the time when the Gospel first began to be preached? Truly, under the inspiration of the Spirit, he wrote to you concerning himself, and Cephas, and Apollos, because even then parties had been formed among you. But that inclination for one above another entailed less guilt upon you, inasmuch as your partialities were then shown towards apostles, already of high reputation, and towards a man whom they had approved. But now reflect who those are that have perverted you, and lessened the renown of your far-famed brotherly love. It is disgraceful, beloved, yea, highly disgraceful, and unworthy of your Christian profession, that such a thing should be heard of as that the most steadfast and ancient Church of the Corinthians should, on account of one or two persons, engage in sedition against its presbyters. And this rumour has reached not only us, but those also who are unconnected with us; so that, through your infatuation, the name of the Lord is blasphemed, while danger is also brought upon yourselves.


There's a couple of interesting references to Jacob as a brother:
  1. Chapter 4 (in full above) : "our father Jacob fled from the face of Esau his brother"
    • wrt envy: wrt Adam & Cain; Moses & Pharoah; David & Saul; Aaron & Miriam; Dathan and Abiram (alive to Hades)
    .
  2. Chapter 31:

    Let us cleave then to His blessing, and consider what are the means of possessing it. Let us think over the things which have taken place from the beginning. For what reason was our father Abraham blessed? was it not because he wrought righteousness and truth through faith? Isaac, with perfect confidence, as if knowing what was to happen, cheerfully yielded himself as a sacrifice. Jacob, through reason of his brother, went forth with humility from his own land, and came to Laban and served him; and there was given to him the sceptre of the twelve tribes of Israel.

    That may be interesting wrt Jacob = James, wrt in turn to James being said to be a brother of Jesus
    • (not sure who the "him" he served would be)
    .
  3. Chapter 29 {Him being God, not Jesus, iiuc):

    Let us then draw near to Him with holiness of spirit, lifting up pure and undefiled hands to Him, loving our gracious and merciful Father, who has made us partakers in the blessings of His elect. For thus it is written, "When the Most High divided the nations, when He scattered the sons of Adam, He fixed the bounds of the nations according to the number of the angels of God. His people Jacob became the portion of the Lord, and Israel the lot of His inheritance." And in another place [the Scripture] says, "Behold, the Lord takes to Himself a nation out of the midst of the nations, as a man takes the first-fruits of his threshing-floor; and from that nation shall come forth the Most Holy.

There's no mention of a cross, or even a crucifixion; and hardly mention of any other key Christian tropes, other than the resurrection

It comes across as a very early Christian text: after Paul but before the Gospels
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