How, according to Turmel, the marcionites named the Demiurge: never 'god'

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Giuseppe
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How, according to Turmel, the marcionites named the Demiurge: never 'god'

Post by Giuseppe »


La rédaction de l'épître aux Ephésiens est, dans son ensemble, marcionite. C'est sur ce fond que l'éditeur catholique a appliqué ses broderies. Nous connaissons déjà celle qu'il a exécutée dans 3:5. Plusieurs autres seront signalées dans les notes. Je ne vais m'occuper ici que de trois retouches qui réclament certaines explications.

Dans 3:9, Paul nous apprend qu'il a reçu la mission de faire connaître le plan du mystère caché «dans le Dieu qui a tout créé». La formule «le Dieu qui a tout créé» est unique dans tout le Nouveau Testament (dans Hebr. 3:4 il y a une nuance importante). Sa présence ici est un fait étrange. Ce fait a nécessairement une explication. Quelle est-elle? Ce qui complique le problème, c'est que le contexte est, sans null doute possible, marcionite et que, selon la dogmatique marcionite, le Dieu bon avait tenu le mystère du Christ soigneusement caché à toutes les créatures, mais surtout au Dieu créateur. Notre texte actuel ne peut donc venir du rédacteur primitif qui l'aurait tenu pour une pure absurdité. D'où vient-il et comment a-t-il pris naissance ? En toute hypothèse il y a ici une retouche catholique, et l'unique question est de savoir en quoi au juste elle a consisté. Les marcionites de la fin du second siècle prétendaient que saint Paul avait parlé du «mystère caché au Dieu qui a tout créé» et que les catholiques avaient altéré son texte en y insérant la particule «dans». Tertullien de qui nous tenons ce renseignement (Adv. Marc. 5:18) prend naturellement la contrepartie et accuse Marcion d'avoir supprimé la particule qui, selon lui, fait partie intégrante du texte de Paul.

La solution des marcionites de la fin du second siècle est séduisante. Pourtant je n'ose y adhérer. Elle suppose que le rédacteur marcionite a désigné en toutes lettres le «Dieu qui a tout créé». Or cela est souverainement invraisemblable. Dans les documents marcionites qui ont passé sous nos yeux le Créateur est appelé «le Mauvais», «le Diable», «le Prince de ce monde», «le Prince de la puissance de l'air», «la Puissance des ténèbres»; d'autres fois il est l'objet de tours de phrase qui le désignent sans lui donner aucun nom. [1] Dans un seul endroit (2 Cor. 4:5) il est nommé «le Dieu de ce siècle». Cette dernière appellation jetée là dédaigneusement ne me paraît par suffisante pour garantir l'authenticité de la formule en litige. Je crois donc que «le Dieu qui a tout créé» est le produit d'une retouche catholique et que les marcionites contemporains de Tertullien, mystifiés par cette expression dont la véritable origine leur échappait, se sont tirés d'affaires en la corrigeant. Leur leçon «caché au Dieu qui a tout créé» est une second interpolation pratiquée dans une interpolation antérieure.

Faut-il conclure que la première rédaction parlait du «mystère caché en Dieu) (dans le Dieu bon) ? Cette hypohtèse serait plausible si le complément apo tôn aïônôn qui se présente ici désignait les temps passés. Mais elle désigne certainement les générations passées, car c'est aux générations ou, si l'on veut, aux hommes qui les constituent que l'on peut cacher un mystère et non aux temps. Or avec cette interprétation la formule «en Dieu» est aussi naïve que superflue. Concluons que ce qui appartient à l'éditeur catholique ce n'est pas seulement l'incidente «qui a tout créé», c'est l'expression entière «dans le Dieu qui a tout créé». Le premier rédacteur s'était borné à dire que Paul avait fait connaître le plan du mystère «caché aux générations passées», sans éprouver le besoin d'expliquer que le mystère était caché en Dieu.

(my bold)
Giuseppe
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Re: How, according to Turmel, the marcionites named the Demiurge: never 'god'

Post by Giuseppe »

my translation via Deepl:


The redaction of the epistle to the Epthesians is, as a whole, Marcionite. It is on this background that the Catholic editor has applied his embroidery. We already know the one he made in 3:5. Several others will be mentioned in the notes. I will deal here only with three alterations which require some explanation.

In 3:9, Paul tells us that he has been given the task of making known the plan of the mystery hidden "in the God who created everything. The formula "the God who created everything" is unique in the whole New Testament (in Hebr. 3:4 there is an important nuance). Its presence here is a strange fact. This fact necessarily has an explanation. What is it? What complicates the problem is that the context is undoubtedly Marcionite and that, according to Marcionite dogma, the good God had kept the mystery of Christ carefully hidden from all creatures, but especially from the creator God. Our present text cannot, therefore, come from the primitive writer who would have considered it pure nonsense. Where did it come from and how did it originate? In any case, there is a Catholic reworking here, and the only question is to know in what exactly it consisted. The Marcionites of the end of the second century claimed that St. Paul had spoken of the "mystery hidden from the God who created everything" and that the Catholics had altered his text by inserting the particle "in". Tertullian, from whom we have this information (Adv. Mark. 5:18), naturally takes the opposite view and accuses Marcion of having removed the particle which, according to him, is an integral part of Paul's text.

The solution of the Marcionites of the end of the second century is attractive. Yet I dare not subscribe to it. It assumes that the Marcionite redactor has designated in full the "God who created everything". But this is highly implausible. In the Marcionite documents which have passed before our eyes the Creator is called "the Evil One", "the Weak One", "the Prince of this world", "the Prince of the power of the air", "the Power of Darkness"; at other times he is the object of turns of phrase which designate him without giving him any name. [1] In one place (2 Cor. 4:5) he is called "the God of this age". This last name, disdainfully thrown in, does not seem to me to be sufficient to guarantee the authenticity of the formula in dispute. I therefore believe that "the God who created everything" is the product of a Catholic retouching and that the Marcionites, contemporaries of Tertullian, mystified by this expression whose true origin escaped them, got out of trouble by correcting it. Their lesson "hidden from the God who created everything" is a second interpolation practiced in an earlier interpolation.

Should we conclude that the first redaction spoke of the "mystery hidden in God" (in the good God)? This hypothesis would be plausible if the complement apo tôn aïôn which occurs here designated past times. But it certainly designates past generations, because it is to the generations or, if one wants, to the men who constitute them that one can hide a mystery, and not to times. Now with this interpretation the formula "in God" is as naive as it is superfluous. Let us conclude that what belongs to the Catholic editor is not only the incidental "who created everything", it is the whole expression "in the God who created everything". The first editor had limited himself to saying that Paul had made known the plan of the mystery "hidden from past generations", without feeling the need to explain that the mystery was hidden in God.

Giuseppe
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Re: How, according to Turmel, the marcionites named the Demiurge: never 'god'

Post by Giuseppe »

Why have I quoted this particular passage from Turmel's commentary?

Because if Turmel is right that the marcionites didn't reserve for YHWH not even the title of (inferior) 'god', then the possibility that the Marcionism was an evolution from a more mitigated (=less dualistic) older ditheism evaporates rapidly.

:tombstone:
davidmartin
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Re: How, according to Turmel, the marcionites named the Demiurge: never 'god'

Post by davidmartin »

So Marcionism came later but from some earlier just as dualistic source?

this seems like the place to ask a question
In Luke and Matthew is found "At that time Jesus said, “I praise you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because you have hidden these things from the wise and learned, and revealed them to little children. Yes, Father, for this is what you were pleased to do"

The quote is the same in both and doesn't mention God only the Father (Lord of heaven and earth a potential gloss)
But there's a difference in the preceding verses
Matthew omits what Luke has "I saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven"

I think Matthew might have used Luke as a source here, and this might be used by Marcionites so Matthew omitted it, Marcionites then equated the 'wise and learned' with the God preached by the scholars but they also said the one falling from heaven was the demiurge? Hence not a God as you suggest. Matthew didn't retain this bit because it was too Marcionite?
Giuseppe
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Re: How, according to Turmel, the marcionites named the Demiurge: never 'god'

Post by Giuseppe »

davidmartin wrote: Tue Oct 19, 2021 6:08 am So Marcionism came later but from some earlier just as dualistic source?
correct. I (personally) would add: and gentile source.
davidmartin wrote: Tue Oct 19, 2021 6:08 am Matthew omits what Luke has "I saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven"

Matthew didn't retain this bit because it was too Marcionite?
Correct. So Couchoud (from where probably you have already read that interpretation) commenting the same passage:

Satan or the Devil, the most powerful and evil of Demons, is an “Angel of the Creator”(T. v. 16; cf. v. 12). “The Creator is the author of the Devil” (Tertullian ii. 10). That is why the creator is often mistaken for the devil. “If the Devil is the Creator, who is the Devil by the Creator” (Tertullian v. 18). “Christ by his coming has vanquished the Devil” (A. i. 4); tableau of Satan falling from heaven comes in Rev. 12:9

(Creation of Christ, p. 405)
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