Turmel: Jesus undertook to do in Palestine what, fifteen centuries later, Joan of Arc did in France

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Giuseppe
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Turmel: Jesus undertook to do in Palestine what, fifteen centuries later, Joan of Arc did in France

Post by Giuseppe »


Les rêcits et les oracles évangéliques se rangent en deux groupes qui se contredisent, dont l'un seul peut être historique, dont l'autre appartien nécessairement au domaine de la fiction. Et l'oeil exercé a vite fait d'identifier ces groupes dont l'un est occupé exclusivement par les fictions. Fictions ces merveilles célestes qui furent censées signaler la naissance de Jésus et dont, trente ans plus tard, il n'existait aucune trace! Fictions ces prodiges imposants accomplis par Jésus qui ne puit faire aucun miracle à Nazareth!

Fictions ces multiples prophéties par lesquelles Jésus annonça sa mort à se disciples qui ne comprennent rien aux plus éclatantes! Fictions ces maximes sublimes tombées des lèvres de Jésus qui, à ses bons moments était jovial, mais qui ne savait pas maîtriser ses réflexes et que la moindre contrariété, le plus léger contretemps faisait sortir de son calme !

Les scories une fois dévorées par le feu de la critique, reste le métal. Il est représenté par quelques textes historiques ou incorporés dans des légendes inspirées par l'historie... Ces témoins authentiques nous diront que Jésus a voulu être libérateur, rédempteur et sauveur, qu'il s'est présenté avec un programme de rédemption et de salut. Mais ils nous diront aussi que ce rédempteur, ce sauveur voulait arracher son pays au joug de la pouissance romaine. La rédemption [chrétienne], qui sujourd'hui est une satisfaction donnée à la justice divine, avait jadis le caractère d'un paiement dont le diable était bénéficiaire. Mystique sous sa forme actuelle, elle l'était aussi dans le haut moyen-âge. Mais primitivement [pour les Juifs] elle était d'ordre national. Jésus entreprit de faire en Palestine ce que, quinze siècles plus tard, Jeanne d'Arc fit en France. Et les deux rédemptions mystiques, auxquelles l'Église a successivement adhéré, sont des transformations d'un mouvement produit par un agitateur dans les couches populaires de son pays.

(Joseph Turmel, Histoire des Dogmes, tome I, preface, p. 13-14)
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neilgodfrey
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Re: Turmel: Jesus undertook to do in Palestine what, fifteen centuries later, Joan of Arc did in France

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Here Turmel, so embedded in the traditions of Christian interpretation, believes, like his peers and so admirably expressed more recently by James McGrath, that he can reach through beneath the stories and pull out the artifacts of ancient events that have long lain hidden beneath those stories.

This is, when one pauses to think it through, nothing other than a baseless, even wishful, rationalization of the stories. Like the interpretation of Jesus walking on water that says he was really only walking on a sandbank slightly hidden by the tide. It is the same kind of rationalization.

What motivates it in Joseph Turmel's case? Read his autobiography (Martyr to the Truth) and the motive that drives this interpretation becomes clear. It is the same as the one identified by Albert Schweitzer when he said "each individual created Jesus in accordance with his own character."

Joan of Arc was a martyr and Joseph Turmel saw himself as a martyr. Like Joan of Arc, Turmel's Jesus "wanted to be a liberator, redeemer and saviour" who "wanted to tear her country away from the yoke of Roman power" -- exactly the same motive and life's goal of Turmel himself as we read in Martyr to the Truth. Turmel wanted to be a liberator who could open the eyes of key leaders in the Roman church and wreak his vengeance on that church and liberate its captives.

Schweitzer himself failed to grasp that this breathing of one's own life and character into Jesus to make him live historically was without any methodological merit. He praised the efforts of historians who had used that method for having "sharpened historical insights"; these only needed to be refined from their excess dross to have lasting value, he believed.

It's the reverse of what Paul taught about labouring until Christ be formed in the lives of his converts. The followers of Christ attempt to resurrect him by infusing their own lives into him.
Giuseppe
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Re: Turmel: Jesus undertook to do in Palestine what, fifteen centuries later, Joan of Arc did in France

Post by Giuseppe »

I don't read Turmel in that way (i.e. by comparing him to the Christian apologist James McGrath), but rather in the way Roger Parvus has read Turmel, i.e. well exemplified by this RG Price's comment:

Color me skeptical. Firstly, anyone claiming to be able to identify “the real Paul” is already an biased practitioner. It is an impossible task. Even if one were to be able to convincingly separate out multiple authors in the works its impossible to identify any of the authors and certainly to be able to claim that one of them is “the real Paul”.

Clearly Loisy had an agenda and a bias. He likes some things he finds in the epistles and he dislikes other things. Lo-and-behold, he’s been able to identify that all of the statements in Paul’s letters that he finds offensive aren’t from the real Paul! The “real Paul” was a rational man of valid concerns who was taking a reasoned approach to try to expand the audience for Christianity. The “fake Paul” was an irrational mystic fool whose words should be ignored and whom we should essentially write out of Christianity history as if he didn’t exist and had no role in the development of the religion!

Err no.

One thing I like about older works is that they don’t hide their biases 🙂

(my bold)
https://vridar.org/2019/03/06/revising- ... ment-91606

The conclusion of the Turmel's commentary on Paul is that, by removing from the epistles all the fool mysticism (of marcionite and proto-catholic origin) the historical Paul was just "a rational man of valid concerns who was taking a reasoned approach to try to expand the audience for Christianity".

Hence, a such Paul (minus mysticism) is more expected on historicity than on mythicism.

Mythicist RG Price accepts explicitly the implication.

By attacking Turmel precisely on his view on Paul, Mythicist Dujardin conceded implicitly the implication.

I accept the implication.

Neil should accept the implication, too.
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neilgodfrey
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Re: Turmel: Jesus undertook to do in Palestine what, fifteen centuries later, Joan of Arc did in France

Post by neilgodfrey »

Giuseppe wrote: Wed Oct 20, 2021 9:33 pm I don't read Turmel in that way (i.e. by comparing him to the Christian apologist James McGrath), but rather in the way Roger Parvus has read Turmel, i.e. well exemplified by this RG Price's comment:
I think you have read far more into my comment than I ever thought to express or at any time ever imagined. I was responding specifically, directly, solely and even explicitly to Turmel's seeing the historical Jesus as a Joan of Arc figure.
Giuseppe
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Re: Turmel: Jesus undertook to do in Palestine what, fifteen centuries later, Joan of Arc did in France

Post by Giuseppe »

neilgodfrey wrote: Wed Oct 20, 2021 11:01 pm I think you have read far more into my comment than I ever thought to express or at any time ever imagined. I was responding specifically, directly, solely and even explicitly to Turmel's seeing the historical Jesus as a Joan of Arc figure.
But that view of the historical Jesus as a rebel (and in primis the same historicity of Jesus) would descend, according to Turmel (obviously not based only on his quoted passage above), from what is left in Paul once we remove all the marcionite and catholic interpolations: a Paul follower of a Christ who would have destroyed the Romans.

Once we remove the celestial "rulers of this age", the hymn to Philippians, the "mystery hidden in a revelation", etc etc et similia from the pauline epistles as mere marcionite and catholic interpolations, it makes not much sense to continue to insist that Paul was a hallucinator and/or an apostle not involved in the anti-Roman ideology of the time. This, I think, is the Turmel's argument to believe that there was probably a historical Jesus. This view is shared by Van Manen and by Schopenhauer, as you know.
Last edited by Giuseppe on Wed Oct 20, 2021 11:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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neilgodfrey
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Re: Turmel: Jesus undertook to do in Palestine what, fifteen centuries later, Joan of Arc did in France

Post by neilgodfrey »

Giuseppe wrote: Wed Oct 20, 2021 9:33 pm The conclusion of the Turmel's commentary on Paul is that, by removing from the epistles all the fool mysticism (of marcionite and proto-catholic origin) the historical Paul was just "a rational man of valid concerns who was taking a reasoned approach to try to expand the audience for Christianity".
If I understand you correctly, I think you are comparing T's paring down the epistles to find the "real Paul" with paring away the myth in the gospels to find the "real Jesus".

Those two processes are not identical in substance at all. In the epistles the paring down is done by identifying in the breaks in the train of logical thought. In the gospels the paring down is done by removing the mythical and then substituting an imagined historical that is nowhere in the gospels.

See in the commentaries that are on archive.org (as you know) where Turmel copies the entire epistles as we have them and sets different sections in different fonts and typefaces so we can identify the different layers of argument (in his view).

Compare the rationalization of the gospel myths. Jesus is walking on water. Remove that miracle from the story because it is impossible. Imagine instead Jesus walking on a sandbank hidden by a few centimeters of water. That's not the same was T's treatment of the epistles. That is chucking out the story we have and simply replacing it with another one from one's imagination.
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neilgodfrey
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Re: Turmel: Jesus undertook to do in Palestine what, fifteen centuries later, Joan of Arc did in France

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Giuseppe wrote: Wed Oct 20, 2021 11:12 pmBut that view of the historical Jesus as a rebel (and in primis the same historicity of Jesus) would descend, according to Turmel (obviously not based only on his quoted passage above), from what is left in Paul once we remove all the marcionite and catholic interpolations: a Paul follower of a Christ who would have destroyed the Romans.
But we don't find a Jesus like that after removing the Marcionite and Catholic layers in T's view. Read the normal sized font in italics in his letters at the end of the commentaries and there is no such Jesus to be found.
Giuseppe wrote: Wed Oct 20, 2021 11:12 pmOnce we remove the celestial "rulers of this age", the hymn to Philippians, the "mystery hidden in a revelation", etc etc et similia from the pauline epistles as mere marcionite and catholic interpolations, it makes not much sense to continue to insist that Paul was a hallucinator and/or an apostle not involved in the anti-Roman ideology of the time. This, I think, is the Turmel's argument to believe that there was probably a historical Jesus. This view is shared by Van Manen and by Schopenhauer, as you know.
No, once we remove those layers there is no earthly rebel Jesus hoping to liberate Palestine from Rome at all. Not at all. There is nothing more than a Jesus who was delivered up to be crucified and who rose again. That's all.
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neilgodfrey
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Re: Turmel: Jesus undertook to do in Palestine what, fifteen centuries later, Joan of Arc did in France

Post by neilgodfrey »

Turmel pares back what he sees as layers that have intruded into Paul's letters and is left with what is in those letters: Paul's original words.

But to find a Joan of Arc Jesus figure one has to pare back Paul and the gospels and in the empty space deposit one's imagined Joan of Arc Jesus figure.

One can then rationalize and justify planting this alien Jesus "beneath" or "behind" the texts (as McGrath has explained it but so have others) by asserting that such an original Jesus "could have led, via theological imagination", to what we read in the texts. That is putting it bluntly, but it is, essentially, the unique "historical method" among a good many historical Jesus scholars.

(It is also, if I may venture, much the same sort of argument used to justify an original TF, but we won't go there.)
Last edited by neilgodfrey on Wed Oct 20, 2021 11:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Giuseppe
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Re: Turmel: Jesus undertook to do in Palestine what, fifteen centuries later, Joan of Arc did in France

Post by Giuseppe »

neilgodfrey wrote: Wed Oct 20, 2021 11:13 pm
If I understand you correctly, I think you are comparing T's paring down the epistles to find the "real Paul" with paring away the myth in the gospels to find the "real Jesus".
Why do you use the term 'paring down' with reference to Paul ? I can understand you when you refer the expression 'paring down' to the rationalizations applied on the Gospels, but when I remove from Paul, as marcionite interpolation, his claim about the rulers of this age crucifying Jesus in outer space, I am not going to "paring down" Paul, I am really finding a different and older image of Paul, an image I may call 'the historical Paul'.

So, given that just found image of Paul (an image that is not a reduction, since it doesn't disturb none, save the marcionites and the catholics), the next step is to ask: a such Paul, is he more expected on mythicism or on historicity ?

Frankly, as I have said more times in past, a Paul without the hymn to Philippians, without 2 Cor 2:6-8, without the various passages where he is shown as an hallucinator, is a Paul more expected on the assumption of a historical Jesus than otherwise.
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Giuseppe
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Re: Turmel: Jesus undertook to do in Palestine what, fifteen centuries later, Joan of Arc did in France

Post by Giuseppe »

neilgodfrey wrote: Wed Oct 20, 2021 11:16 pm

But we don't find a Jesus like that after removing the Marcionite and Catholic layers in T's view. Read the normal sized font in italics in his letters at the end of the commentaries and there is no such Jesus to be found.
True, but it also true that in whiletime we have added new knowledge (by removing the interpolations), hence we are justified to apply Bayes again, and to repeat the iteration given that, docet Carrier, our knowledge of background has been just modified.

Can you imagine a Carrier who accepts the challenge (to re-write his opus magnum in the light of a 'reduced' Paul without more archons and celestial hymns) ?

It is not a coincidence that Carrier attacks a priori who talks too much about marcionite interpolations in Paul. In this, he has a Mythicist precursor: Edouard Dujardin.
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