The Revelation of the Mystery Hidden for Ages

Discussion about the New Testament, apocrypha, gnostics, church fathers, Christian origins, historical Jesus or otherwise, etc.
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Irish1975
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The Revelation of the Mystery Hidden for Ages

Post by Irish1975 »

There are 4 Pauline passages that must be read together, since they reflect the same Marcionite/Gnostic ideas in almost identical language.

Key terms:

apocalypsis/revelation
mystery
hidden/kept silent/unknown
aeons (archons, powers, etc.)
gnosis
sophia
glory

Essential themes:

  • the revelation given specifically to Paul or "to us," the spiritual ones, prophets, apostles.
  • indwelling Christ (Sophia, the spirit, gnosis) in lieu of any notion of Jesus as a man
  • inclusion of the gentiles
  • stark contrast between "now" (the kairos) and "long ages past"

[I use the NASB95 translation, but with "dispensation" rather than "stewardship" for οἰκονομία. The struck-out portion of the Romans passage should be regarded as a catholic interpolation, as explained below.]
Romans 16:25-27
25 Τῷ δὲ δυναμένῳ ὑμᾶς στηρίξαι κατὰ τὸ εὐαγγέλιόν μου καὶ τὸ κήρυγμα Ἰησοῦ Χριστοῦ, κατὰ ἀποκάλυψιν μυστηρίου χρόνοις αἰωνίοις σεσιγημένου,
26 φανερωθέντος δὲ νῦν διά τε γραφῶν προφητικῶν κατ’ ἐπιταγὴν τοῦ αἰωνίου θεοῦ εἰς ὑπακοὴν πίστεως εἰς πάντα τὰ ἔθνη γνωρισθέντος,
27 μόνῳ σοφῷ θεῷ, διὰ Ἰησοῦ Χριστοῦ, ᾧ ἡ δόξα εἰς τοὺς αἰῶνας, ἀμήν.
25 Now to Him who is able to establish you according to my gospel and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery which has been kept secret for long ages past,
26 but now is manifested, and by the Scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the eternal God, has been made known to all the nations, leading to obedience of faith;
27 to the only wise God, through Jesus Christ, be the glory forever. Amen.

1 Corinthians 2:6-16
6 Σοφίαν δὲ λαλοῦμεν ἐν τοῖς τελείοις, σοφίαν δὲ οὐ τοῦ αἰῶνος τούτου οὐδὲ τῶν ἀρχόντων τοῦ αἰῶνος τούτου τῶν καταργουμένων·
7 ἀλλὰ λαλοῦμεν θεοῦ σοφίαν ἐν μυστηρίῳ τὴν ἀποκεκρυμμένην, ἣν προώρισεν ὁ θεὸς πρὸ τῶν αἰώνων εἰς δόξαν ἡμῶν,
8 ἣν οὐδεὶς τῶν ἀρχόντων τοῦ αἰῶνος τούτου ἔγνωκεν· εἰ γὰρ ἔγνωσαν, οὐκ ἂν τὸν κύριον τῆς δόξης ἐσταύρωσαν.
9 ἀλλὰ καθὼς γέγραπται·
ἃ ὀφθαλμὸς οὐκ εἶδεν καὶ οὖς οὐκ ἤκουσεν
καὶ ἐπὶ καρδίαν ἀνθρώπου οὐκ ἀνέβη,
ἃ ἡτοίμασεν ὁ θεὸς τοῖς ἀγαπῶσιν αὐτόν.
10 ἡμῖν δὲ ἀπεκάλυψεν ὁ θεὸς διὰ τοῦ πνεύματος· τὸ γὰρ πνεῦμα πάντα ἐραυνᾷ, καὶ τὰ βάθη τοῦ θεοῦ.
11 τίς γὰρ οἶδεν ἀνθρώπων τὰ τοῦ ἀνθρώπου εἰ μὴ τὸ πνεῦμα τοῦ ἀνθρώπου τὸ ἐν αὐτῷ; οὕτως καὶ τὰ τοῦ θεοῦ οὐδεὶς ἔγνωκεν εἰ μὴ τὸ πνεῦμα τοῦ θεοῦ.
12 ἡμεῖς δὲ οὐ τὸ πνεῦμα τοῦ κόσμου ἐλάβομεν ἀλλὰ τὸ πνεῦμα τὸ ἐκ τοῦ θεοῦ, ἵνα εἰδῶμεν τὰ ὑπὸ τοῦ θεοῦ χαρισθέντα ἡμῖν·
13 ἃ καὶ λαλοῦμεν οὐκ ἐν διδακτοῖς ἀνθρωπίνης σοφίας λόγοις ἀλλ’ ἐν διδακτοῖς πνεύματος, πνευματικοῖς πνευματικὰ συγκρίνοντες.
14 ψυχικὸς δὲ ἄνθρωπος οὐ δέχεται τὰ τοῦ πνεύματος τοῦ θεοῦ· μωρία γὰρ αὐτῷ ἐστιν καὶ οὐ δύναται γνῶναι, ὅτι πνευματικῶς ἀνακρίνεται.
15 ὁ δὲ πνευματικὸς ἀνακρίνει [τὰ] πάντα, αὐτὸς δὲ ὑπ’ οὐδενὸς ἀνακρίνεται.
16 τίς γὰρ ἔγνω νοῦν κυρίου, ὃς συμβιβάσει αὐτόν; ἡμεῖς δὲ νοῦν Χριστοῦ ἔχομεν.
6 Yet we do speak wisdom among those who are mature; a wisdom, however, not of this age nor of the rulers of this age, who are passing away;
7 but we speak God’s wisdom in a mystery, the hidden wisdom which God predestined before the ages to our glory;
8 the wisdom which none of the rulers of this age has understood; for if they had understood it they would not have crucified the Lord of glory;
9 but just as it is written,
“Things which eye has not seen and ear has not heard,
And which have not entered the heart of man,
All that God has prepared for those who love Him.”
10 For to us God revealed them through the Spirit; for the Spirit searches all things, even the depths of God.
11 For who among men knows the thoughts of a man except the spirit of the man which is in him? Even so the thoughts of God no one knows except the Spirit of God.
12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, so that we may know the things freely given to us by God,
13 which things we also speak, not in words taught by human wisdom, but in those taught by the Spirit, combining spiritual thoughts with spiritual words.
14 But a natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised.
15 But he who is spiritual appraises all things, yet he himself is appraised by no one.
16 For who has known the mind of the Lord, that he will instruct Him? But we have the mind of Christ.

Ephesians 3: 1-13
1 Τούτου χάριν ἐγὼ Παῦλος ὁ δέσμιος τοῦ Χριστοῦ [Ἰησοῦ] ὑπὲρ ὑμῶν τῶν ἐθνῶν--
2 εἴ γε ἠκούσατε τὴν οἰκονομίαν τῆς χάριτος τοῦ θεοῦ τῆς δοθείσης μοι εἰς ὑμᾶς,
3 [ὅτι] κατὰ ἀποκάλυψιν ἐγνωρίσθη μοι τὸ μυστήριον, καθὼς προέγραψα ἐν ὀλίγῳ,
4 πρὸς ὃ δύνασθε ἀναγινώσκοντες νοῆσαι τὴν σύνεσίν μου ἐν τῷ μυστηρίῳ τοῦ Χριστοῦ,
5 ὃ ἑτέραις γενεαῖς οὐκ ἐγνωρίσθη τοῖς υἱοῖς τῶν ἀνθρώπων ὡς νῦν ἀπεκαλύφθη τοῖς ἁγίοις ἀποστόλοις αὐτοῦ καὶ προφήταις ἐν πνεύματι,
6 εἶναι τὰ ἔθνη συγκληρονόμα καὶ σύσσωμα καὶ συμμέτοχα τῆς ἐπαγγελίας ἐν Χριστῷ Ἰησοῦ διὰ τοῦ εὐαγγελίου,
7 οὗ ἐγενήθην διάκονος κατὰ τὴν δωρεὰν τῆς χάριτος τοῦ θεοῦ τῆς δοθείσης μοι κατὰ τὴν ἐνέργειαν τῆς δυνάμεως αὐτοῦ.
8 Ἐμοὶ τῷ ἐλαχιστοτέρῳ πάντων ἁγίων ἐδόθη ἡ χάρις αὕτη, τοῖς ἔθνεσιν εὐαγγελίσασθαι τὸ ἀνεξιχνίαστον πλοῦτος τοῦ Χριστοῦ
9 καὶ φωτίσαι [πάντας] τίς ἡ οἰκονομία τοῦ μυστηρίου τοῦ ἀποκεκρυμμένου ἀπὸ τῶν αἰώνων ἐν τῷ θεῷ τῷ τὰ πάντα κτίσαντι,
10 ἵνα γνωρισθῇ νῦν ταῖς ἀρχαῖς καὶ ταῖς ἐξουσίαις ἐν τοῖς ἐπουρανίοις διὰ τῆς ἐκκλησίας ἡ πολυποίκιλος σοφία τοῦ θεοῦ,
11 κατὰ πρόθεσιν τῶν αἰώνων ἣν ἐποίησεν ἐν τῷ Χριστῷ Ἰησοῦ τῷ κυρίῳ ἡμῶν,
12 ἐν ᾧ ἔχομεν τὴν παρρησίαν καὶ προσαγωγὴν ἐν πεποιθήσει διὰ τῆς πίστεως αὐτοῦ.
13 διὸ αἰτοῦμαι μὴ ἐγκακεῖν ἐν ταῖς θλίψεσίν μου ὑπὲρ ὑμῶν, ἥτις ἐστὶν δόξα ὑμῶν.
1 For this reason I, Paul, the prisoner of Christ Jesus for the sake of you Gentiles—
2 if indeed you have heard of the dispensation of God’s grace which was given to me for you;
3 that by revelation there was made known to me the mystery, as I wrote before in brief.
4 By referring to this, when you read you can understand my insight into the mystery of Christ,
5 which in other generations was not made known to the sons of men, as it has now been revealed to His holy apostles and prophets in the Spirit;
6 to be specific, that the Gentiles are fellow heirs and fellow members of the body, and fellow partakers of the promise in Christ Jesus through the gospel,
7 of which I was made a minister, according to the gift of God’s grace which was given to me according to the working of His power.
8 To me, the very least of all saints, this grace was given, to preach to the Gentiles the unfathomable riches of Christ,
9 and to bring to light what is the administration of the mystery which for ages has been hidden in God who created all things;
10 so that the manifold wisdom of God might now be made known through the church to the rulers and the authorities in the heavenly places.
11 This was in accordance with the eternal purpose which He carried out in Christ Jesus our Lord,
12 in whom we have boldness and confident access through faith in Him.
13 Therefore I ask you not to lose heart at my tribulations on your behalf, for they are your glory.


Colossians 1:24-27
24 Νῦν χαίρω ἐν τοῖς παθήμασιν ὑπὲρ ὑμῶν καὶ ἀνταναπληρῶ τὰ ὑστερήματα τῶν θλίψεων τοῦ Χριστοῦ ἐν τῇ σαρκί μου ὑπὲρ τοῦ σώματος αὐτοῦ, ὅ ἐστιν ἡ ἐκκλησία,
25 ἧς ἐγενόμην ἐγὼ διάκονος κατὰ τὴν οἰκονομίαν τοῦ θεοῦ τὴν δοθεῖσάν μοι εἰς ὑμᾶς πληρῶσαι τὸν λόγον τοῦ θεοῦ,
26 τὸ μυστήριον τὸ ἀποκεκρυμμένον ἀπὸ τῶν αἰώνων καὶ ἀπὸ τῶν γενεῶν– νῦν δὲ ἐφανερώθη τοῖς ἁγίοις αὐτοῦ,
27 οἷς ἠθέλησεν ὁ θεὸς γνωρίσαι τί τὸ πλοῦτος τῆς δόξης τοῦ μυστηρίου τούτου ἐν τοῖς ἔθνεσιν, ὅ ἐστιν Χριστὸς ἐν ὑμῖν, ἡ ἐλπὶς τῆς δόξης·
24 Now I rejoice in my sufferings for your sake, and in my flesh I do my share on behalf of His body, which is the church, in filling up what is lacking in Christ’s afflictions.
25 Of this church I was made a minister according to the dispensation from God bestowed on me for your benefit, so that I might fully carry out the preaching of the word of God,
26 that is, the mystery which has been hidden from the past ages and generations, but has now been manifested to His saints,
27 to whom God willed to make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles, which is Christ in you, the hope of glory.


The obvious similarity cuts against the idea of treating Romans and 1 Corinthians as "authentic," while Ephesians and Colossians are "Deutero-Pauline." Perhaps the first two texts are earlier, and the latter two are derivative. But there is one school of thought. The highest possible role is claimed for Paul as the vessel of the revealed mystery, which he relates through his own writing, and not by interpreting the Jewish scriptures.

Turmel (hat tip to Neil for putting Turmel's commentaries at archive.org) makes a strong case that Romans 16:26 contains a Catholic gloss of what is otherwise a Marcionite declaration about the newness of the revelation. The writer of the gloss wants to impose the idea that Paul got his revelation through the medium of "the prophetic writings," i.e. OT scriptures. But as Turmel observes, this makes the whole thought hopelessly incoherent. The mystery cannot be hidden for long ages and only now revealed, on the one hand, but also witnessed in the centuries-old writings of the Hebrew prophets.

There is no revelation in these passages without there being others from whom the mystery has been hidden or withheld. This esoteric theme is antithetical to the catholic view, e.g. the "pearls before swine" attitude of the writer of Acts.
Last edited by Irish1975 on Thu Oct 21, 2021 6:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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GakuseiDon
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Re: The Revelation of the Mystery Hidden for Ages

Post by GakuseiDon »

Irish1975 wrote: Wed Oct 20, 2021 11:40 amThe mystery cannot be hidden for long ages and only now revealed, on the one hand, but also witnessed in the centuries-old writings of the Hebrew prophets.
Doesn't Paul claim Christ was foretold in scriptures, though? For example:

1 Cor 15:3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;

It might be that, for Paul, the Hebrew prophets spoke of Christ in mysterious terms, and it is only at the time of Paul that these were all put together and the mystery explained.
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Irish1975
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Re: The Revelation of the Mystery Hidden for Ages

Post by Irish1975 »

In 1 Corinthians 15, Paul does claim that the death and resurrection of Christ was “according to the scriptures.” Who knows what that means. It apparently wasn’t just a historical event that Paul and “the twelve” claim to remember. On the other hand, where do any ancient scriptures predict these events or the existence of Christ? But you are right that Paul is not simply presenting himself as the revealer of the mystery in 1 Cor 15.

Not so in these passages. Here it seems that the mystery of the promise in Christ is not connected to the ancient prophetic writings—except in Romans 16, where the hand of a Catholic redactor is evident (cf. identical language in Romans 1 about the obedience of faith among the gentiles). Nor is the revelation of the mystery connected with resurrection appearances, or any idea of Christ’s (unique) resurrection. One could argue that the idea is implicit. But what is actually conveyed is “insight into the mystery of Christ” (Eph 3:4), or making known God’s wisdom to both heavenly powers and the gentiles, and revealing “the Christ that is in you.”

It’s a different model, where Paul (perhaps along with his associated prophets and apostles) is the unique revealer.
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MrMacSon
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Re: The Revelation of the Mystery Hidden for Ages

Post by MrMacSon »

A minor point but I'd say the grammar would be slightly different without the struck-out section (and without the anglicized commas) viz. -

Romans 16:25-27
25 Τῷ δὲ δυναμένῳ ὑμᾶς στηρίξαι κατὰ τὸ εὐαγγέλιόν μου καὶ τὸ κήρυγμα Ἰησοῦ Χριστοῦ κατὰ ἀποκάλυψιν μυστηρίου χρόνοις αἰωνίοις σεσιγημένου
26 φανερωθέντος δὲ νῦν διά τε γραφῶν προφητικῶν κατ’ ἐπιταγὴν τοῦ αἰωνίου θεοῦ εἰς ὑπακοὴν πίστεως εἰς πάντα τὰ ἔθνη γνωρισθέντος
27 μόνῳ σοφῷ θεῷ διὰ Ἰησοῦ Χριστοῦ ᾧ ἡ δόξα εἰς τοὺς αἰῶνας, ἀμήν.
25 Now to Him who is able to establish you according to my gospel and the preaching of Jesus Christ according to the revelation of the mystery which has been kept secret for long ages past
26 manifested and by the Scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the eternal God, has been made known to all the nations, leading to obedience of faith
27 to by the only wise God through Jesus Christ be the glory forever. Amen.

And the key word in all those passages, as Irish1975 refers in the title and referred in discussion at the end of his OP, would be 'mystery' -

Rom 16:25 "according to 'the revelation of the mystery' (which has [supposedly] been kept secret for long ages past)"

1 Cor 2:7 "but we speak God’s wisdom in a mystery, the [supposed] hidden wisdom which God [supposedly] predestined before the ages to our glory"

Ephesians 3:3 "by revelation there was made known to me the mystery"
Ephesians 3:4 "my insight into the mystery of Christ"
Ephesians 3:9 "to bring to light what is 'the administration of the mystery' which for ages has [supposedly] been hidden in God"

Colossians 1:26 "the mystery which has been hidden"
Colossians 1:27 "the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles"

Colossians 1:24-27 in full is a 'sight' to be behold, evangelising at its most ardent (italics, bold and underlining for emphasis) -

24 Νῦν χαίρω ἐν τοῖς παθήμασιν ὑπὲρ ὑμῶν καὶ ἀνταναπληρῶ τὰ ὑστερήματα τῶν θλίψεων τοῦ Χριστοῦ ἐν τῇ σαρκί μου ὑπὲρ τοῦ σώματος αὐτοῦ, ὅ ἐστιν ἡ ἐκκλησία,
25 ἧς ἐγενόμην ἐγὼ διάκονος κατὰ τὴν οἰκονομίαν τοῦ θεοῦ τὴν δοθεῖσάν μοι εἰς ὑμᾶς πληρῶσαι τὸν λόγον τοῦ θεοῦ,
26 τὸ μυστήριον τὸ ἀποκεκρυμμένον ἀπὸ τῶν αἰώνων καὶ ἀπὸ τῶν γενεῶν– νῦν δὲ ἐφανερώθη τοῖς ἁγίοις αὐτοῦ,
27 οἷς ἠθέλησεν ὁ θεὸς γνωρίσαι τί τὸ πλοῦτος τῆς δόξης τοῦ μυστηρίου τούτου ἐν τοῖς ἔθνεσιν, ὅ ἐστιν Χριστὸς ἐν ὑμῖν, ἡ ἐλπὶς ]τῆς δόξης·
24 Now I rejoice in my sufferings for your sake, and in my flesh I do my share on behalf of His body, which is the church, in filling up what is lacking in Christ’s afflictions.
25 Of this church I was made a minister according to the dispensation from God bestowed on me for your benefit, so that I might fully carry out the preaching of the word of God,
26 that is, the mystery which has been hidden from the past ages and generations, but has now been manifested to His saints,
27 to whom God willed to make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles, which is Christ in you, the hope of glory.

It's all about Paul and what he can achieve for his church
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GakuseiDon
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Re: The Revelation of the Mystery Hidden for Ages

Post by GakuseiDon »

Irish1975 wrote: Thu Oct 21, 2021 6:24 pm In 1 Corinthians 15, Paul does claim that the death and resurrection of Christ was “according to the scriptures.” Who knows what that means.
Whatever it means, Paul is claiming he found something in the scriptures relevant to Christ. Another example:

Rom 9:30 What shall we say then? That Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness of faith;
31 but Israel, pursuing the law of righteousness, has not attained to the law of righteousness.
32 Why? Because they did not seek it by faith, but as it were, by the works of the law.[fn] For they stumbled at that stumbling stone.
33 As it is written:

“Behold, I lay in Zion a stumbling stone and rock of offense,
And whoever believes on Him will not be put to shame.” [Isaiah 8:14]


For Paul, Isaiah has prophecised how the Gentiles and the Israelites will receive the news about Christ, whether Isaiah knew it or not.
Irish1975 wrote: Thu Oct 21, 2021 6:24 pmOn the other hand, where do any ancient scriptures predict these events or the existence of Christ?
They don't! But Paul finds them anyway. :)
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billd89
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Re: The Revelation of the Mystery

Post by billd89 »

Irish1975 wrote: Wed Oct 20, 2021 11:40 amThere are 4 Pauline passages that must be read together, since they reflect the same Marcionite/Gnostic ideas in almost identical language.
Paul predates Marcion by close to 100 yrs. Marcion was a librarian, a book collector (and had many scribes working for him), but he is not the originator of Gnosticism. He's at least a Third, Fourth Generation Gnostic, if not later. So Marcion consolidated, sifted through, and rationalized an already rich, extensive base of Gnostic literature. Crediting him as 'the creator' is dead wrong (Plotinus is likewise 'fooling' modern scholars, wrongly credited as 'the originator' everywhere it seems. He is SO LATE: why do ppl miss that?), and I amazed this fallacy has taken root.

I see smthg like this, in stages (probably, more):
1) inchoate ideas appear
2) random preachers synthesise teachings
3) teachings are compiled
4) teachings are codified, organized, disseminated
5) teachings are adapted, evolve

Stages 4,5 are schools, and 'Marcion' is also Stage 3. But he's nowhere near the beginning. Instead, there's an older Judeo-Gnostic culture he's mined aggressively, and those writings were already 75-150 yrs old. (Not all or only, but mostly.)
The obvious similarity cuts against the idea of treating Romans and 1 Corinthians as "authentic," while Ephesians and Colossians are "Deutero-Pauline." Perhaps the first two texts are earlier, and the latter two are derivative. But there is one school of thought. The highest possible role is claimed for Paul as the vessel of the revealed mystery, which he relates through his own writing, and not by interpreting the Jewish scriptures. ... Turmel... makes a strong case that Romans 16:26 contains a Catholic gloss of what is otherwise a Marcionite declaration about the newness of the revelation. The writer of the gloss wants to impose the idea that Paul got his revelation through the medium of "the prophetic writings," i.e. OT scriptures. But as Turmel observes, this makes the whole thought hopelessly incoherent. The mystery cannot be hidden for long ages and only now revealed, on the one hand, but also witnessed in the centuries-old writings of the Hebrew prophets. ... There is no revelation in these passages without there being others from whom the mystery has been hidden or withheld. This esoteric theme is antithetical to the catholic view
Irish1975 wrote: Thu Oct 21, 2021 6:24 pmIn 1 Corinthians 15, Paul does claim that the death and resurrection of Christ was “according to the scriptures.” Who knows what that means.
Why does everybody assume "the prophetic writings" are canonical, in the First C AD? Why are Jewish apocalytic writings excluded?

The "mystery" is in plain sight: it's (First C. BC) antinomian 'Gnostic' Judaism, which had spread from Alexandria throughout Asia Minor over generations.
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Irish1975
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Re: The Revelation of the Mystery

Post by Irish1975 »

billd89 wrote: Fri Oct 22, 2021 7:44 am Paul predates Marcion by close to 100 yrs.
I might agree, if we had good reason to affirm the traditional chronology for Paul, and that he wrote these four passages. But I wasn't making claims or assumptions about the historical context of either Paul or Marcion. There are bits of the epistles that sound Jewish, others Catholic, and others (such as these) Marcionite/gnostic. The topic is the content of these texts.
Marcion was a librarian, a book collector (and had many scribes working for him), but he is not the originator of Gnosticism. He's at least a Third, Fourth Generation Gnostic, if not later. So Marcion consolidated, sifted through, and rationalized an already rich, extensive base of Gnostic literature. Crediting him as 'the creator' is dead wrong (Plotinus is likewise 'fooling' modern scholars, wrongly credited as 'the originator' everywhere it seems. He is SO LATE: why do ppl miss that?), and I amazed this fallacy has taken root.
How do you know who Marcion was or what he did and did not do? Anyhow, I wasn't ascribing authorship to Marcion or "crediting him as the creator."
I see smthg like this, in stages (probably, more):
1) inchoate ideas appear
2) random preachers synthesise teachings
3) teachings are compiled
4) teachings are codified, organized, disseminated
5) teachings are adapted, evolve
So, shit happened.
Irish1975 wrote: Thu Oct 21, 2021 6:24 pmIn 1 Corinthians 15, Paul does claim that the death and resurrection of Christ was “according to the scriptures.” Who knows what that means.
Why does everybody assume "the prophetic writings" are canonical, in the First C AD? Why are Jewish apocalytic writings excluded?
What assumption are you talking about? I said no such thing. But please tell us what scriptures are alluded to.
The "mystery" is in plain sight: it's (First C. BC) antinomian 'Gnostic' Judaism, which had spread from Alexandria throughout Asia Minor over generations.
If you could cite some 1st C BC texts that resemble the mystery theme in these passages (if that is what you are saying), that would be helpful.
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neilgodfrey
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Re: The Revelation of the Mystery Hidden for Ages

Post by neilgodfrey »

Irish1975 wrote: Wed Oct 20, 2021 11:40 am. . . . The writer of the gloss wants to impose the idea that Paul got his revelation through the medium of "the prophetic writings," i.e. OT scriptures. But as Turmel observes, this makes the whole thought hopelessly incoherent. The mystery cannot be hidden for long ages and only now revealed, on the one hand, but also witnessed in the centuries-old writings of the Hebrew prophets. . . . .
Does Turmel have it right, though? In Daniel one reads that a prophetic writing is to be written long before its meaning is divinely destined to be revealed. In Luke we read how Jesus after his resurrection explained the prophecies about himself for the first time -- from the "ancient Scriptures".

So the idea that prophecy is written but concealed until the time has finally come to open up its meaning is found in both the OT and NT. It is not really an incoherent thought, is it?
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Irish1975
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Re: The Revelation of the Mystery Hidden for Ages

Post by Irish1975 »

neilgodfrey wrote: Sat Oct 23, 2021 4:17 am Does Turmel have it right, though? In Daniel one reads that a prophetic writing is to be written long before its meaning is divinely destined to be revealed. In Luke we read how Jesus after his resurrection explained the prophecies about himself for the first time -- from the "ancient Scriptures".

So the idea that prophecy is written but concealed until the time has finally come to open up its meaning is found in both the OT and NT. It is not really an incoherent thought, is it?
I’m not certain but I supsect Turmel is right.

Romans 16:25-27
25 Τῷ δὲ δυναμένῳ ὑμᾶς στηρίξαι κατὰ τὸ εὐαγγέλιόν μου καὶ τὸ κήρυγμα Ἰησοῦ Χριστοῦ, κατὰ ἀποκάλυψιν μυστηρίου χρόνοις αἰωνίοις σεσιγημένου,
26 φανερωθέντος δὲ νῦν διά τε γραφῶν προφητικῶν κατ’ ἐπιταγὴν τοῦ αἰωνίου θεοῦ εἰς ὑπακοὴν πίστεως εἰς πάντα τὰ ἔθνη γνωρισθέντος,
27 μόνῳ σοφῷ θεῷ, διὰ Ἰησοῦ Χριστοῦ, ᾧ ἡ δόξα εἰς τοὺς αἰῶνας, ἀμήν.

The passage does not say that the mystery is concealed in the prophetic writings, but that it is revealed through them. In the other texts I mentioned in the OP, Paul gives no credit at all to the prophetic writings. So I am suspicious of the redundancy of φανερωθέντος (“revealed”) and γνωρισθέντος (“made known”). The latter seems to weaken the former, altering the idea of a special heavenly revelation to Paul into something more mundane. His job was merely to spread the word around, in obedience to the divine command, getting the scriptures right like a good pharisee. Not to receive visions and revelations or to be transported to the third heaven.

I don’t know if the precedent you suggest in Daniel is an apt comparison. There it is the author, pretending to have been a 6th century prophet, who is unveiling mysteries. The 2nd century outrages under Greek rule are what would have confirmed the prophecy. The situation with the Pauline revelation of the mystery long hidden is very different. Paul himself is claiming to be the prophet/apostle who transmits the mystery.
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neilgodfrey
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Re: The Revelation of the Mystery Hidden for Ages

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Irish1975 wrote: Sat Oct 23, 2021 7:16 am
Romans 16:25-27
25 Τῷ δὲ δυναμένῳ ὑμᾶς στηρίξαι κατὰ τὸ εὐαγγέλιόν μου καὶ τὸ κήρυγμα Ἰησοῦ Χριστοῦ, κατὰ ἀποκάλυψιν μυστηρίου χρόνοις αἰωνίοις σεσιγημένου,
26 φανερωθέντος δὲ νῦν διά τε γραφῶν προφητικῶν κατ’ ἐπιταγὴν τοῦ αἰωνίου θεοῦ εἰς ὑπακοὴν πίστεως εἰς πάντα τὰ ἔθνη γνωρισθέντος,
27 μόνῳ σοφῷ θεῷ, διὰ Ἰησοῦ Χριστοῦ, ᾧ ἡ δόξα εἰς τοὺς αἰῶνας, ἀμήν.

The passage does not say that the mystery is concealed in the prophetic writings, but that it is revealed through them.
What is the difference? If it is revealed through the Scriptures the implication is that the prophecies within the Scriptures were closed until that revelation.
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