A subtle way to defame Carrier by Litwa

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Giuseppe
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Re: A subtle way to defame Carrier by Litwa

Post by Giuseppe »

MrMacSon wrote: Sat Oct 23, 2021 4:41 am But I don't think it's worth worrying about (and Litwa has been producing some interesting commentary)
surely the rest of the commentary is intereting, but I am tired of scholars who would like to seem super partes, by comparing atheists and religious only in virtue of their common opposition to YHWH. As if he (= Litwa), differently from Carrier and Marcion, was able to make a best judgement of YHWH, possibly one where YHWH, afterall, is a good guy. :lol:
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GakuseiDon
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Re: A subtle way to defame Carrier by Litwa

Post by GakuseiDon »

Giuseppe wrote: Sat Oct 23, 2021 4:07 am
GakuseiDon wrote: Sat Oct 23, 2021 3:17 am Guiseppe, you should watch that video! Around 42 mins, Litwa talks about the archons who crucified Christ, and his proposed reading may well be suitable to your own theories!
1 Cor 2:6-8 is a marcionite interpolation, as proved, inter alia, by Turmel, hence that passage can't be used to argue for mythicism (because, if it was genuine, then mythicism would have been proved definitively, for me).
That's interesting. According to the reconstructed Marcion Gospel, Christ was crucified under Pilate. If 1 Cor 2:6-8 has been proven to be a Marcionite interpolation, does that mean they thought the archons in 1 Cor 2:6-8 referred to earthly rulers? (I haven't been following the posts about Turmel, I'm sorry)
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MrMacSon
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Re: A subtle way to defame Carrier by Litwa

Post by MrMacSon »

Litwa mentions Markus Vinzent and Matthias Klinghardt in that videoed discussion. A search of the google book version of The Evil Creator for their surnames shows he references Vinzent's Tertullian's Preface to Marcion's Gospel, 2016, and Klinghardt's two-volume tome Das älteste Evangelium und die Entstehung der kanonischen Evangelien, 2015 / The Oldest Gospel and the Formation of the Canonical Gospels , 2020, and at least one other [minor] publication by each.
Giuseppe
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Re: A subtle way to defame Carrier by Litwa

Post by Giuseppe »

GakuseiDon wrote: Sat Oct 23, 2021 1:22 pm. If 1 Cor 2:6-8 has been proven to be a Marcionite interpolation, does that mean they thought the archons in 1 Cor 2:6-8 referred to earthly rulers?
yes, while if, docet Droge, it is a Valentinian interpolation, then it refers to a crucifixion in outer space. My point is that once all the celestial attributes of Jesus (pre-existence, descent for few hours, references to archons, etc) are considered as interpolations (catholic and/or marcionite or even valentinian), only then one has no reasons more to doubt about the Paul's Jesus being earthly (hence the step is short to consider him as probably historical, also).
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Jax
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Re: A subtle way to defame Carrier by Litwa

Post by Jax »

MrMacSon wrote: Sat Oct 23, 2021 1:37 am Litwa makes the same point after ~14:00 (to ~15:00) in the video below as he makes in the first full paragraph of his text on p. 165 above, without reference to Carrier (ie. without reference to Carrier in the video, at least up until 15:00)

eta3: Litwa makes the same point about atheists & Marcion's view of the Creator God as he does in those 2 pages above at ~ 3:50 onwards in the video (also without mentioning Carrier)

eta4: Litwa says at 29:10 that "modern atheists are saying what Marcion said" (after some pretty pointed comments before that; not about atheists)



(eta: however, I do think Litwa maligns Carrier and Thomas L Brodie unnecessarily in How the Gospels Became History, 2019)

eta2: I get the impression Litwa doesn't know of the proposals and arguments that (i) Marcion preceded Luke or (ii) that they both arose [separately] from a common proto-gospel ... Litwa does say ~ 4:30+ that Luke's Gospel was a response to Marcion's
"I'll zip up now". :lol:

That was an awkward little moment. :)
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