A subtle way to defame Carrier by Litwa

Discussion about the New Testament, apocrypha, gnostics, church fathers, Christian origins, historical Jesus or otherwise, etc.
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GakuseiDon
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Re: A subtle way to defame Carrier by Litwa

Post by GakuseiDon »

Guiseppe, you should watch that video! Around 42 mins, Litwa talks about the archons who crucified Christ, and his proposed reading may well be suitable to your own theories!
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GakuseiDon
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Re: A subtle way to defame Carrier by Litwa

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Just finished the video -- fascinating! Best part for me was Litwa's discussion about Second Century Christianity, from around 47 mins 40 secs, to about 52 mins. I'll have to buy his book!
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MrMacSon
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Re: A subtle way to defame Carrier by Litwa

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p. 163 ie. before the two pages I posted above

Litwa The Evil Creator p163.PNG
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MrMacSon
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Re: A subtle way to defame Carrier by Litwa

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Following on from some of the things David Litwa said in the previous video, I think this 9 minute video is a good example of how the negative parts of certain passages from the Hebrew Bible were omitted as those passages were selected and used for the NT: in this case Luke 4:16-30, using modifications of and additions to Isaiah 61 and 58

ie. why we got a document called Evangelion, [the] 'good news' / 'good tidings'

As Heiser says in the intro [which is a clip from the end], "Grace refers to the fact [they've] omitted the revenge stuff (against they Gentiles)"

Last edited by MrMacSon on Sat Oct 23, 2021 4:04 am, edited 1 time in total.
Giuseppe
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Re: A subtle way to defame Carrier by Litwa

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Gdon, the fact that both Carrier (or Dawkins, for that matter) and Marcion would agree about the conclusion (== YHWH is evil) is not a good reason to assume that they would agree also about the premises and the way of implying from the premises the said conclusion.
  • Carrier comes to the conclusion that YHWH is evil by using his own philosophical/rational arguments that are known to us.
  • Marcion came to the conclusion that YHWH is evil for reasons that are entirely theological and partially unknown to us.
To compare the two is essentially a fallacy of poisoning the well against Carrier. Something as: Carrier sounds too much as a neo-marcionite, "therefore" his arguments against the goodness of YHWH are not rational at all (as the Marcion's were), because ultimately Carrier is indebted to Marcion and Marcion's legacy.
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Re: A subtle way to defame Carrier by Litwa

Post by Giuseppe »

GakuseiDon wrote: Sat Oct 23, 2021 3:17 am Guiseppe, you should watch that video! Around 42 mins, Litwa talks about the archons who crucified Christ, and his proposed reading may well be suitable to your own theories!
1 Cor 2:6-8 is a marcionite interpolation, as proved, inter alia, by Turmel, hence that passage can't be used to argue for mythicism (because, if it was genuine, then mythicism would have been proved definitively, for me).
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MrMacSon
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Re: A subtle way to defame Carrier by Litwa

Post by MrMacSon »

Giuseppe wrote: Sat Oct 23, 2021 4:02 am
Gdon, the fact that both Carrier (or Dawkins, for that matter) and Marcion would agree about the conclusion (== YHWH is evil) is not a good reason to assume that they would agree also about the premises and the way of implying from the premises the said conclusion.
Carrier comes to the conclusion that YHWH is evil by using his own philosophical/rational arguments that are known to us.
Marcion came to the conclusion that YHWH is evil for reasons that are entirely theological and partially unknown to us.
To compare the two is essentially a fallacy of poisoning the well against Carrier. Something as: Carrier sounds too much as a neo-marcionite, "therefore" his arguments against the goodness of YHWH are not rational at all (as the Marcion's were), because ultimately Carrier is indebted to Marcion and Marcion's legacy.

.
In light of those excerpts from The Evil Creator I've posted above, I thinking you're missing the point and making a mountain out of a flat plain (or even a valley). Move on. The videos are way more important.
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MrMacSon
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Re: A subtle way to defame Carrier by Litwa

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Giuseppe wrote: Sat Oct 23, 2021 4:07 am 1 Cor 2:6-8 is a marcionite interpolation, as proved, inter alia, by Turmel, hence that passage can't be used to argue for mythicism (because, if it was genuine, then mythicism would have been proved definitively, for me).
They're not talking about mythicism. Besides, they talk about 2 Cor 4:3-4 first
Giuseppe
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Re: A subtle way to defame Carrier by Litwa

Post by Giuseppe »

MrMacSon wrote: Sat Oct 23, 2021 1:37 am eta4: Litwa says at 29:10 that "modern atheists are saying what Marcion said" (after some pretty pointed comments before that; not about atheists)
that observation alone is a subtle way to attack "modern atheists" as ideologists à la Marcion.

Atheists don't need to be compared to a religious person, not even if the latter was called Marcion.
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MrMacSon
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Re: A subtle way to defame Carrier by Litwa

Post by MrMacSon »

Giuseppe wrote: Sat Oct 23, 2021 4:15 am that observation alone is a subtle way to attack "modern atheists" as ideologists à la Marcion.
Atheists don't need to be compared to a religious person, not even if the latter was called Marcion.
I don't disagree. And I'm not sure comparing atheists reading the Bible is comparable to Marcion reading the Pentateuch or more of the 'OT'.
But I don't think it's worth worrying about (and Litwa has been producing some interesting commentary)
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