The hidden god of the Gnostics before Jesus?

Discussion about the New Testament, apocrypha, gnostics, church fathers, Christian origins, historical Jesus or otherwise, etc.
davidmartin
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Re: The hidden god of the Gnostics before Jesus?

Post by davidmartin »

Yep thanks Andrew that's the dating schema for Eugnostos I read
The argument employed by Robinson to show that the Johannine Prologue depends on the Trimorphic Protennoia hinges on the manner in which motifs concentrated in the Prologue appear widely dispersed in the more detailed and elaborate mythical scheme of the Trimorphic Protennoia where they seem to find their "natural context." The Providence Monologue does not provide sufficient grounds for such an argument
This is what I'm saying, if the Johannine prologue were inspired by the prologues found in these later gnostic texts then the prologues in the later gnostic texts were survivals of something earlier that the gnostic texts themselves built around or incorporated

I see no compelling argument to think the Trimorphic Protennoia is an expansion of the Providence monologue in Apoc. John especially since Turner flags the basic aretological monologue there as being the first/earliest layer - with the more gnostic elements as later
An alternative is that such monologues were the kind of source material for a variety of texts and we're seeing earlier survivals here

A classic example is found in the Origin of the World. Very gnostic yet it explicitly quotes an earlier work called 'the sacred book' and what is it? An aterological monologue

The apoc of John seems directly inspired by Eugnostos as well prior to the fall of Sophia
This combined with the rewriting of Eugnostos into the Sophia, come on, how much evidence do we need?!
The gnosticising process is on display right in front of our eyes from an earlier (sapiential? angelic? pneumatic?) base

I don't think the hypothesis of an earlier Jewish 'Sethian' existence is wrong though, it's just that there's evidence of a less dualistic alternative that's equally early if not earlier that had it's own standalone set of texts we see fragments and echoes of all over the place!
rgprice
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Re: The hidden god of the Gnostics before Jesus?

Post by rgprice »

andrewcriddle wrote: Sun Oct 31, 2021 12:32 pm IMS The original Nag Hammadi library book suggests a very early date on the basis that the list of philosophical positions at the beginning of Eugnostos does not include Platonism and hence it was written before the Middle Platonic revival in the late 1st century BCE.

However, Eugnostos is clearly borrowing from a Pythagoreanizing type of Middle Platonism and is at the earliest mid 1st century CE.

Andrew Criddle
Can you cite any material that makes this argument?
davidmartin
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Re: The hidden god of the Gnostics before Jesus?

Post by davidmartin »

rg i done your homework for you ha

M. Parrott translator in original NHL in English (Robinson)
The notion of three divine men in the heavenly hierarchy appears to be based on Genesis 1-3 (Immortal Man = God; Son of Man = Adam [81,12]; Son of Son of Man, Savior = Seth). Because of the presence of Seth (although unnamed in the tractate), Eugnostos must be thought of as Sethian, in some sense. However, since it is not classically gnostic and lacks other elements of developed Sethian thought, it can only be characterized as proto-Sethian. Egyptian religious thought also appears to have influenced its picture of the supercelestial realm. The probable place of origin for Eugnostos, then, is Egypt. A very early date is suggested by the fact that Stoics, Epicureans and astrologers are called "all the philosophers." That characterization would have been appropriate in the first century B.C.E., but not later. Eugnostos and Soph. Jes. Chr. may have influenced the Sethian-Ophites, as described by Irenaeus. Some have proposed an influence by Eugnostos on Valentinianism. Because of the dating of Eugnostos, it would not be surprising if Soph. Jes. Chr. had been composed soon after the advent of Christianity in Egypt - the latter half of the first century C.E. That possibility is supported by the tractate's relatively nonpolemical tone.


I think some wiggle room should probably exist in that it could be 1st century CE as well, surely there wasn't some magical cut off point, but either way it's a really early text is the take away point he's making
This dating is a key argument for what i'm saying that the classical gnostic dualism we know (eg Apoc John) is either a later development in the late 1st century OR a kindred but separate and different earlier and competing system that won out in these non-orthodox circles. Thus in terms of Christian origins the roots go back to that less dualistic source. I'd add a note of caution - this may sound like i'm advocating the apologists argument that gnostics stole and corrupted etc, but i hope it's clear i'm not advocating that at all but a more nuanced explanation!
andrewcriddle
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Re: The hidden god of the Gnostics before Jesus?

Post by andrewcriddle »

rgprice wrote: Mon Nov 01, 2021 3:15 am
andrewcriddle wrote: Sun Oct 31, 2021 12:32 pm IMS The original Nag Hammadi library book suggests a very early date on the basis that the list of philosophical positions at the beginning of Eugnostos does not include Platonism and hence it was written before the Middle Platonic revival in the late 1st century BCE.

However, Eugnostos is clearly borrowing from a Pythagoreanizing type of Middle Platonism and is at the earliest mid 1st century CE.

Andrew Criddle
Can you cite any material that makes this argument?
For the relation to Pythagoreanizing Middle Platonism see for example Turner Sethian Gnosticism The precise chronological implications depend on the precise history of the Middle Platonic movement but mid 1st century CE as terminus post quem is unlikely to be far wrong. See Melanges I was dating Eugnostos as after Thrasyllus Tiberius' pet philosopher but this depends on Tarrant's controversial claims in Thrasyllan Platonism about the critical role of Thrasyllus in Neopythagorean Platonism.

Andrew Criddle
davidmartin
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Re: The hidden god of the Gnostics before Jesus?

Post by davidmartin »

Andrew you seem to know a bit about this, i wonder what exactly the connections are in Eugnostos to the philosophical system. This is quite a big question i know

It seems here there's a reluctance to give credit to this text because it doesn't fit the theory that the roots of Christian gnosticism are in a Jewish cosmic dualism based on opposition to Yahweh. Instead there's a mystical angelic/metaphysical base and if there's any opposition to Yahweh it's not baked into the cake. I'm not sure what the reluctance is but it seems appealing to me to connect texts like Thomas and the Odes together with Eugnostos. Thus explaining the lack of gnostic dualism in those early texts which is a massive problem otherwise
andrewcriddle
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Re: The hidden god of the Gnostics before Jesus?

Post by andrewcriddle »

davidmartin wrote: Wed Nov 03, 2021 1:12 am Andrew you seem to know a bit about this, i wonder what exactly the connections are in Eugnostos to the philosophical system. This is quite a big question i know

It seems here there's a reluctance to give credit to this text because it doesn't fit the theory that the roots of Christian gnosticism are in a Jewish cosmic dualism based on opposition to Yahweh. Instead there's a mystical angelic/metaphysical base and if there's any opposition to Yahweh it's not baked into the cake. I'm not sure what the reluctance is but it seems appealing to me to connect texts like Thomas and the Odes together with Eugnostos. Thus explaining the lack of gnostic dualism in those early texts which is a massive problem otherwise
One of the major changes as early Middle Platonism develops towards Neo-Platonism is the change in how the 2nd part of Plato's Parmenides was regarded. Instead of being regarded as a word and/or logic game, it became regarded as a source of profound truths about the incomprehensible ultimate reality and the intermediary beings connecting this to the world of our experience.

What is being argued is that Eugnostos is using these ideas and hence comes from a period in which Middle Platonism has not only begun but has started to develop towards what will become Neo-Platonism.

Andrew Criddle

Edited to Add

This is quite compatible with a date for Eugnostos in say the time of Nero. The problems arise if you want to date it much earlier than that.
davidmartin
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Re: The hidden god of the Gnostics before Jesus?

Post by davidmartin »

thankyou Andrew i did not know that, Nero's fine i'll take that
the question might be then what ideas are being expressed here in the new language of this emerging platonism, where did they come from and what are they. it seems to me it could presuppose a kind of paradisaical existence inspired by Genesis prior to the fall
schillingklaus
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Re: The hidden god of the Gnostics before Jesus?

Post by schillingklaus »

Origin of the World is based on pre-Christian sources and has been Judaized and Christianized subsequently in several steps. The same goes for Apochryphon of John and Hypostasis of the Archons. Sophia JC is a Christianization of pre-Christian Eugnostos. The differences between Origin, Apochryphon and Hypostasis just mean that they responded to different challenges at different times, trying to adapt to new audiences.
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billd89
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Re: "The Unknown God"

Post by billd89 »

Contra Eduard Norden:
https://scienceinpoland.pap.pl/en/news/ ... lmyra.html

According to Kubiak-Schneider, the addressees were multiple deities who deserved the eternal hymn of thanksgiving. According to her, the name 'Merciful' refers to is Bel-Marduk, the head of the Babylonian pantheon also worshiped in Palmyra, who saved people and gods from Tiamat, a monster embodying chaos and darkness. The 'Lord of the World', in turn, can refer to Bel, the Lord of the Universe, as well as Baalshamin, the god of storm and fertility identified with Zeus. Only the phrase 'He whose name is blessed forever' can be universal and refer to any male deity, which listened to the praying person's requests and deserves eternal glory, which is confirmed by ancient hymns and prayers from Babylonia and Asyria from the periods before Alexander the Great and Romans.

The non-use of the name of the god in case of dedication was therefore a sign of respect. The Palmyreans were perfectly aware of the names of their deities, the archaeologist argues.

Kubiak-Schneider said: “It is therefore not surprising that the deity's image is not found on the altars, which in this case is not connected with the prohibition on presenting the divine face. There was no one Anonymous God, every god who listened and showed favour to requests deserved an eternal praise.”

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Leucius Charinus
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Re: The hidden god of the Gnostics before Jesus?

Post by Leucius Charinus »

rgprice wrote: Wed Oct 27, 2021 3:54 am Firstly, we can follow Gmirkin in concluding that the Torah and Judaism as we know it, originated in the 3rd century BCE.
Agreed. Gmirkin has introduced a new paradigm. But the Christians of antiquity wanted Plato to have borrowed from Moses in order to devalue the antiquity of the Greeks. The hidden god of the Gnostics comes straight out of Plato.
But, it appears that we don't have solid evidence of all this that predates Irenaeus, though of course such Gnostics had to pre-date Irenaeus in order for him to be aware of them, but we don't know by how long.
Irenaeus the master Ante Nicene heresiologist is being credited with an absolute control over the chronology of the Gnostics. No Greek manuscripts, only very late Latin manuscripts, are extant for this Irenaeus.

I can completely understand the reluctance to consider Irenaeus as a pseudo-historical fabrication of the later (Latin) church industry. But until this reluctance is overcome then "The hidden god of the Gnostics" will remain hidden by the church [industry] in the Ante Nicene epoch by means of forgery and interpolation.

Comparing the words of Jesus from “The Secret Book of John” in the NHL (and copies elsewhere) to the words of Arius from “Thalia” indicates that "The hidden god of the Gnostics" may not have appeared in the chronology of antiquity prior to the Arian controversy. Have we under-estimated the agenda of the church [industry] to actively obscure the nature of the 4th century controversy? FWIW I think we have.

https://www.academia.edu/44862334/_The_ ... nd_Thalia_

Where is "The Quest for the Historical Irenaeus"?
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