Steve Mason on the Testimonium Flavianum

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Maciej
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Steve Mason on the Testimonium Flavianum

Post by Maciej »

Steve Mason, a well known Josephan scholar, appeared on MythVision podcast few moths ago, presenting his case for the authentic core of the Testimonium Flavianum. Mason argues for a sort of compromise between cases made by Alice Whealey and Ken Olson. He thinks that Eusebius did some changes here and there but finds it impropable that Eusebius created the TF out of nothing. The reason for that is the language of the TF, that he finds to be characteristic of Josephus in few instances. Mason discusses TF phrase by phrase, but in this post I would like to draw attention to those phrases to which proponents of the theory of Eusebius' authorship of the testimonium flavianum have not given much attention. I present a short summary below and invite you to watch his whole presentatio. For the first hour he gives a background knowledge for people not familiar with the subject and the proceed to discussing the contents of the TF.

[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UkJPznfgfRI[/youtube]
Now...comes
"Josephus has it 4 times in War, 10 in Antiquties, 7 of these in Ant. 17-20. It is characteristic of this part of Antiquities"
about this time
"josephus has it 5 times, 4 of those in Ant. 17 and 18, including passages shortly before (18.39) and after (18.80) this one. This phrase and similiar ones (eg., "aboot this period") are characteristic of this section
if indeed
Josephus has it 4 times, and all 3 of those in Antiquities are in books 17-20
who receive X with pleasure
"Jospehus: 8 occurrences, all in Ant. 17-19 - two just before and after this passage [TF]. Distinctive of this section of Antiquities.
the true [things, stuff]
"Not a simple noun for "truth," but contraction of plural article and adjective [true things]; Used only by only a few authors (Demosthenes, Plato, Aristotle), but extensively by them; avouded by most (including historians); Josephus has it 8 other times, 6 in Antiquities-life. It is characteristic of Josephus
having been condemned to the cross by Pilate
"the verb "condemn" has various uses: informal criticsm or censure; legal term for condemnation to a specific punishment. Josephus has verb 14 times, but 7 (half) of these are concentrated in Ant. 17-19, 6 of them in book 18, and all have this narrower sense of legal condemnation to punishment
those who had loved him at first
"Josephus has it 49 times, 38 in Antiquities, and 12 (a quarter of total) in Antiquities 17-20. This verb for "love" is also common in his works, occuring 75 times (49 in Antiquities).
the divine prophets
Josephus has it one time when he speaks of issiah
by the principal men among us
"Josephus often uses "the principals" (without "men") - always in War; Eusebius changes to "leaders"; In other writers, adding "men" is rare (because it's obvious); Josephus adds "men" 14 other times in Antiquities, 11 of these in Ant. 17-18 and the Life - distinctive of his writing. "Among us" another distinctive trait of Josephus's later writings (1 in War but 49 times in later works, 28 in Ant.)

It's interesting that some phrases are characteristic of books 17-20 of the Antiquities. 2 of 5 instances of "about this time" are found in the context of the TF (one shortly before and one after). I think this is the case where Eusebius (if he indeed composed the TF) is not simply writing like Eusebius but adopting the "style" of Josephus. Whealey notes that Eusebius has "about this time" 3 times (2 in HE book VI and one in Comm Ps). Tho it's possible that he came up with this phrase fourth time, i think's it's improbable that he would do this in a context where Josephus used this phrase 2 out of 5 times. This would be a strange coincidence. Mason in the video admits that a phrase like this could be easily imitated by a forger.
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Peter Kirby
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Re: Steve Mason on the Testimonium Flavianum

Post by Peter Kirby »

Maciej wrote: Tue Oct 26, 2021 4:01 am Steve Mason, a well known Josephan scholar, appeared on MythVision podcast few moths ago, presenting his case for the authentic core of the Testimonium Flavianum.
Thanks for sharing this!
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Maciej
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Re: Steve Mason on the Testimonium Flavianum

Post by Maciej »

Peter Kirby wrote: Tue Oct 26, 2021 12:38 pm
Maciej wrote: Tue Oct 26, 2021 4:01 am Steve Mason, a well known Josephan scholar, appeared on MythVision podcast few moths ago, presenting his case for the authentic core of the Testimonium Flavianum.
Thanks for sharing this!
Oops! This presentation is from "HarmonyAtheist" channel, not MythVision. I've watched Mason's presentation on Luke-Acts use of Josephus just the other day. This one was on MythVision (also great stuff https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wvfPxFQCpCU&).
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maryhelena
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Re: Steve Mason on the Testimonium Flavianum

Post by maryhelena »

Welcome to the forum.

Nice to see another post on the TF - rumors that the TF argument is over, done and dusted by Eusebius - are greatly exaggerated ...... ;)
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maryhelena
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Re: Steve Mason on the Testimonium Flavianum

Post by maryhelena »

It would be good to have a transcript of the second half of the video where Steve Mason discusses the TF.
Has Steve Mason gone into such TF detail in anything he has published?
rgprice
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Re: Steve Mason on the Testimonium Flavianum

Post by rgprice »

Looks like a poor argument to me. Apparently these are not statisticians. This needs to be compared to other samples of texts. Maybe he does that in the video, I don't know.
Now...comes
"Josephus has it 4 times in War, 10 in Antiquties, 7 of these in Ant. 17-20.
Yes, but how often is this phrase used by people other than Josephus? This has to be compared to something. And how that comparison is done is crucial. You really need to compare it to a broad array of texts from different times, up through the 4th century, written in different places, and not just Christian texts.

Also, what do we know about how scribes operated and how they copied styles and used surrounding words?

I've long thought that the TF is the incorporation of an interlinear note, not that it was intentionally done by Eusebius. What do we expect of a scribe who was working on Josephus, who made an interlinear note? Would he use language similar to Josephus simply out of habit since he's been copying this text?

But again, this needs comparisons to the frequencies of phrases in other texts. And of course all of this assumes no intentionally attempt to copy style. If the TF is indeed forged, as opposed to simply the incorporation of a note, then why would anyone think that the forger wouldn't have intentionally tried to copy the style of Josephus?
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neilgodfrey
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Re: Steve Mason on the Testimonium Flavianum

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maryhelena wrote: Wed Oct 27, 2021 8:14 am It would be good to have a transcript of the second half of the video where Steve Mason discusses the TF.
Has Steve Mason gone into such TF detail in anything he has published?
I accidentally posted my response to this question here: viewtopic.php?p=128229#p128229
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maryhelena
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Re: Steve Mason on the Testimonium Flavianum

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neilgodfrey wrote: Wed Oct 27, 2021 12:44 pm
maryhelena wrote: Wed Oct 27, 2021 8:14 am It would be good to have a transcript of the second half of the video where Steve Mason discusses the TF.
Has Steve Mason gone into such TF detail in anything he has published?
I accidentally posted my response to this question here: viewtopic.php?p=128229#p128229
Neil.... check the time stamp. Your comment - the one I responded. - is 12.28 am (UK time). My post on this thread. - which you say is what you were responding to - is 5.14 pm (UK time)..... think your still mixing things up..... 🤔
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neilgodfrey
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Re: Steve Mason on the Testimonium Flavianum

Post by neilgodfrey »

maryhelena wrote: Wed Oct 27, 2021 12:56 pm
neilgodfrey wrote: Wed Oct 27, 2021 12:44 pm
maryhelena wrote: Wed Oct 27, 2021 8:14 am It would be good to have a transcript of the second half of the video where Steve Mason discusses the TF.
Has Steve Mason gone into such TF detail in anything he has published?
I accidentally posted my response to this question here: viewtopic.php?p=128229#p128229
Neil.... check the time stamp. Your comment - the one I responded. - is 12.28 am (UK time). My post on this thread. - which you say is what you were responding to - is 5.14 pm (UK time)..... think your still mixing things up..... 🤔
Hoo boy. Maybe I did. Maybe when I saw X I was reminded of Y and posted there (at X) thinking I was posting at Y instead. Thank you for your thorough checking up, Mary. We really must get this sorted out, mustn't we. Sorry for causing you more confusion by my misguided explanation. If only I thought it important enough to take more time to recall the details. Now where were we.... was Pilate made guv in 19 or 26....??
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Ken Olson
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Re: Steve Mason on the Testimonium Flavianum

Post by Ken Olson »

neilgodfrey wrote: Wed Oct 27, 2021 3:44 pm Now where were we.... was Pilate made guv in 19 or 26....??
:D
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