Satan/Belial, etc. as "lords of this world"?

Discussion about the New Testament, apocrypha, gnostics, church fathers, Christian origins, historical Jesus or otherwise, etc.
rgprice
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Satan/Belial, etc. as "lords of this world"?

Post by rgprice »

I know of several Jewish works that discuss Satan or Belial, such as Martyrdom of Isaiah, etc. Are there pre-Christian examples of the idea that Satan or Belial/Beliar, were lords or rulers of the world?

It seems to me that this would imply that if the world were ruled by Satan it would not be under the rule of God/Yahweh. Surely Jews did not think that the world was ruled by Satan as opposed to God/Yahweh?

Why would one believe that the material world should be destroyed, if one believed that the material world is the creation of the God that they worship? It seems that the logic behind the idea that the material world should be destroyed and that our souls will go to live in the spiritual world with God, necessarily flows from a belief that the material world was created by a different being than the God of the spiritual heaven.

1 Cor 15:
20 But Christ has indeed been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. 21 For since death came through a man, the resurrection of the dead comes also through a man. 22 For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. 23 But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him. 24 Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power. 25 For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy to be destroyed is death. 27 For he “has put everything under his feet.” Now when it says that “everything” has been put under him, it is clear that this does not include God himself, who put everything under Christ. 28 When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all.
...
47 The first man was of the dust of the earth; the second man is of heaven. 48 As was the earthly man, so are those who are of the earth; and as is the heavenly man, so also are those who are of heaven. 49 And just as we have borne the image of the earthly man, so shall we bear the image of the heavenly man.

50 I declare to you, brothers and sisters, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. 51 Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed— 52 in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. 53 For the perishable must clothe itself with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality. 54 When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality, then the saying that is written will come true: “Death has been swallowed up in victory.”

55 “Where, O death, is your victory?
Where, O death, is your sting?”

56 The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law. 57 But thanks be to God! He gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

How can Paul be so fervently against the Law, if the Law is given by the Father of Jesus? The part in Galatians where this is explained makes no sense, and evidently wasn't in Marcion's version of the letter. Can one despise the law AND worship the law giver? If Paul despises the law, does he not also despise the law giver - God/Yahweh?

How can the material world be so horrible and so corrupt? Was the serpent really able to totally ruin everything God had made? It seems that this only makes logical sense if the Creation is the product of an oppressor. The oppressor who created the Law.

It would seem that the proto-orthodox then turned God/Yahweh into Satan and did some hand waiving around the Law. But there is this big disconnect, because the Law clearly comes from God/Yahweh . But if Paul were railing against Satan all this time, not God/Yahweh, then why does he also rail against the Law? Why was Paul against circumcision? Wasn't circumcision the mark of servitude to God/Yahweh?

There are other reasons to be against circumcision. I think there were others Jews who were trying to relax the requirement of circumcision to make it easier for Gentiles to convert. But, within Paul remains a strong core of ideas that together indicate that Paul was against God/Yahweh. Paul railed against the Law of God/Yahweh, he railed against the mark of God/Yahweh (circumcision), he believed that the material world was corrupt and needed to be destroyed.

So I get back to the question. Are there established precedents for the belief that Satan/Belial was the "ruler of the world" and that the material was thoroughly corrupted by Satan/Belial -- even though it had been created by God/Yahweh?
Last edited by rgprice on Fri Nov 19, 2021 12:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.
lsayre
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Re: Satan/Belial, etc. as "lords of this world"?

Post by lsayre »

It is disputed as to whether or not a creator god actually created matter Ex Nihilo, or if it was eternally extant, and said god merely crafted it.

Genesis 1:3A
When God began to create heaven and earth—the earth being unformed and void, with darkness over the surface of the deep and a wind from God sweeping over the water— God said, ‘Let there be light.

In this highly literal translation god's first act of creation is his action(s) taken whereby to permit light to shine upon the earth.
lsayre
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Re: Satan/Belial, etc. as "lords of this world"?

Post by lsayre »

Go to 28:30 and begin watching there. Christine Hayes of Yale University...

https://youtu.be/ANUD8IK12ms
John2
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Re: Satan/Belial, etc. as "lords of this world"?

Post by John2 »

Are there pre-Christian examples of the idea that Satan or Belial/Beliar, were lords or rulers of the world?

The Dead Sea Scrolls. As the Wikipedia page for Belial notes:

Belial controls scores of demons, which are specifically allotted to him by God for the purpose of performing evil. Belial, despite his malevolent disposition, is considered an angel.

Belial's presence is found throughout the War Scrolls and is established as the force occupying the opposite end of the spectrum of God ...

The War Scroll and the Thanksgiving hymns both delve into the idea that Belial is accursed by God and his people, and shows how the existence of Belial in this world can be attributed to the mysteries of God since we can not know why he permits the dealings of Belial to persist.

In the Dead Sea Scrolls, Belial is further contrasted with God. These are the Angel of Light and the Angel of Darkness. The Manual of Discipline identifies the Angel of Light as God himself. The Angel of Darkness is identified in the same scroll as Belial ...

The Damascus Document ... states that during the eschatological age, "Belial shall be let loose against Israel, as God spoke through Isaiah the prophet."


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Belial#Dead_Sea_Scrolls




The use of the word theos in 2 Cor. 4:4 corresponds with elohim, which can have the sense of "god" or "angel."
ABuddhist
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Re: Satan/Belial, etc. as "lords of this world"?

Post by ABuddhist »

rgprice wrote: Fri Nov 19, 2021 11:22 am Why would one believe that the material world should be destroyed, if one believed that the material world is the creation of the God that they worship? It seems that the logic behind the idea that the material world should be destroyed and that our souls will go to live in the spiritual world with God, necessarily flows from a belief that the material world was created by a different being than the God of the spiritual heaven.
Well, one could believe that YHWH had created the material world but that the material world had been so corrupted by Satan/Belial that YHWH had decided that it needed to be destroyed. A similar thing, after all, is said to have occurred with the world during Noah's time.
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Thomas R
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Re: Satan/Belial, etc. as "lords of this world"?

Post by Thomas R »

rgprice wrote: Fri Nov 19, 2021 11:22 am I know of several Jewish works that discuss Satan or Belial, such as Martyrdom of Isaiah, etc. Are there pre-Christian examples of the idea that Satan or Belial/Beliar, were lords or rulers of the world?

It seems to me that this would imply that if the world were ruled by Satan it would not be under the rule of God/Yahweh. Surely Jews did not think that the world was ruled by Satan as opposed to God/Yahweh?
This is exactly what the Ebionites believed, who either received that doctrine from Christ or already had it.
But as I said, they set side by side two who have been appointed
by God, one being Christ, but one the devil. And they say that Christ has
been allotted the world to come, but that this world has been entrusted
to the devil—supposedly by the decree of the Almighty, at the request
of each of them.
-The Panarion of Epiphanius of Salamis
rgprice
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Re: Satan/Belial, etc. as "lords of this world"?

Post by rgprice »

The Ebionites are not pre-Christian. They were Christians. I'm asking if there examples of pre-Christian Jews who considered Satan/Belial to be the "lord of the world" or "god of the world" or "ruler of the world", etc. The War Scroll does hint at this possibility.

From the War Scroll:
Col 13:
You yourself [God] made Belial for the pit, an angel of malevolence, his dominion is in darkness and his counsel is to condemn and convict. All the spirits of his lot, the angels of destruction, walk in accord with darkness, for it is their only desire. ...
Col 14:
Throughout all our generations You have made Your mercies wonderous for the remnant of the people during the dominion of Belial.

So, yes, this perhaps does indicate that Belial is the ruler of the world, at least for the current era.

However, the War Scroll describes how the Sons of Light will cleans the world of the forces of Belial, to bring peace and harmony to the world.

Gnostics, however, taught that the material world was hopelessly corrupt. The interest was not in cleansing the world of corruption, which they viewed as inherently impossible, but rather in escaping from the material world altogether. It seems that what we find in the Pauline letters is closer to the Gnostic idea. However, I would say that in light of the statement from the War Scroll (col 14), it is possible to read statements like the one from 2 Cor 4:4 "god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelieving", as referring to Belial, so they don't necessarily require that Paul would have viewed the "god of this world" as the Creator.
lsayre
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Re: Satan/Belial, etc. as "lords of this world"?

Post by lsayre »

In Islamic tradition, Metatron is known as Mīṭaṭrūn, the angel of the veil. That would potentially equate Metatron with Moses in some way. And Moses affinity with Serpents may equate him with a Belial of sorts. And it might also have something to do with the rending of the veil of the Temple from top to bottom immediately upon the death of Jesus. Or both...
lsayre
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Re: Satan/Belial, etc. as "lords of this world"?

Post by lsayre »

Metatron as the "Prince of the World" (or lord of this world):
The Merkabah tradition stresses the role of Metatron as “governing power over the nations, kingdoms and rulers on earth.”[58] Chapter 30 of 3 Enoch pictures Metatron as the Prince of the World Mlw(h r#, the leader of seventy-two princes of the kingdom of world, who speaks (pleads) in favor of the world before the Holy One.[59] Odeberg notes that “the Prince of the World in 3 Enoch combines the function of the rulers of the nations: they plead each one the cause of his nation, the Prince of the World pleads the cause of all nations together, of the world in its entirety.”
https://www.marquette.edu/maqom/titles.html

And the Metatron-Moses link:

https://www.marquette.edu/maqom/mirror33.html

As well as the Metatron - Satan (Belial) connection found within the same link seen above to Moses:
It is striking that in this passage Enoch-Metatron is venerated by angelic beings whose names (Uzza, Azza, and Azael) are reminiscent of the names of the notorious leaders of the fallen angels found in the early Enochic lore that are rendered by the zoomorphic code of the Animal Apocalypse as the stars. The tradition of angelic veneration has rather early roots in the Enochic lore and can be found in 2 Enoch 22 where the patriarch’s transformation into the heavenly counterpart, like in the Exagoge, is accompanied by angelic veneration. In this account the Lord invites Enoch to stand forever before his Face. In the course of this initiation the Deity orders the angels of heaven to venerate the patriarch.
lsayre
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Re: Satan/Belial, etc. as "lords of this world"?

Post by lsayre »

The relevance here to the OP being that Metatron is pre-Christian.
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