Was Judas an afterthought?

Discussion about the New Testament, apocrypha, gnostics, church fathers, Christian origins, historical Jesus or otherwise, etc.
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neilgodfrey
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Re: Was Judas an afterthought?

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MrMacSon wrote: Wed Nov 24, 2021 1:41 am
neilgodfrey wrote: Wed Nov 24, 2021 12:53 am
Giuseppe wrote: Tue Nov 23, 2021 9:56 pm In Marcion's Evangelion, there is no mention of Judas. I refer you to André Wautier's reconstruction of the Evangelion, where he gives textual evidence about the creator playing the role of istigator (not Judas), in the Evangelion.
Where is that reconstruction available?
Here? http://misraim3.free.fr/gnosticisme/l_e ... ionite.pdf
Thanks. But unfortunately that pdf only contains a discussion by Wautier and does not contain a reconstruction of M's gospel.
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neilgodfrey
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Re: Was Judas an afterthought?

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Giuseppe wrote: Wed Nov 24, 2021 6:00 am
MrMacSon wrote: Wed Nov 24, 2021 1:41 am
neilgodfrey wrote: Wed Nov 24, 2021 12:53 am
Giuseppe wrote: Tue Nov 23, 2021 9:56 pm In Marcion's Evangelion, there is no mention of Judas. I refer you to André Wautier's reconstruction of the Evangelion, where he gives textual evidence about the creator playing the role of istigator (not Judas), in the Evangelion.
Where is that reconstruction available?
Here? http://misraim3.free.fr/gnosticisme/l_e ... ionite.pdf
Not only that. There was a pdf before available with the complete text reconstructed. I have saved it and I will post it here.
Look forward to it.
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neilgodfrey
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Re: Was Judas an afterthought?

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Irish1975 wrote: Wed Nov 24, 2021 9:31 am I don't know if it has been noted already, but the Christian part of the Martyrdom and Ascension of Isaiah (3:13ff) seems to have no mention of Judas Iscsariot.
Of course! We DO have a narrative without a Judas. Appreciate the reminder!
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neilgodfrey
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Re: Was Judas an afterthought?

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GakuseiDon wrote: Tue Nov 23, 2021 1:20 pm There were twelve apostles who were sent out from Jerusalem, with someone being chosen by lot to replace Judas, according to Acts.
Justin's narrative allows no room for a replacement of one of the twelve by lot. Justin narrates that all twelve were scattered at the time of Jesus's crucifixion and that Jesus then came back from the dead, convinced them that everything happened as prophesied, and sent them out to preach to the world.
GakuseiDon wrote: Tue Nov 23, 2021 1:20 pm
It may be that Justin was 'hiding' the story of Judas, but I don't think it is even that. Justin doesn't mention Judas because Judas is simply irrelevant to any of his arguments.

Andrew made the same suggestion but as I pointed out in a reply then, the story of Judas in our canonical works would be very relevant because it is presented as a fulfillment of prophecies -- and that was Justin's whole agenda: to marshall a list of fulfilled prophecies (30 pieces silver, my friend who ate and drank with me) to prove the truth of the Christian message.

The Gospel of Peter likewise appears to be unaware of a Judas. All the discipels, from what I recall, are together in fear after the crucifixion. And Justin does seem to know a narrative that overlaps with GPeter (his focus on Herod's guilt, My Power being the words of Jesus on the cross, reference to nails, etc).

(Of course, GPeter is with good reasons considered to post-date our canonical gospels.)
John2
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Re: Was Judas an afterthought?

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neilgodfrey wrote: Wed Nov 24, 2021 2:54 pm
Irish1975 wrote: Wed Nov 24, 2021 9:31 am I don't know if it has been noted already, but the Christian part of the Martyrdom and Ascension of Isaiah (3:13ff) seems to have no mention of Judas Iscsariot.
Of course! We DO have a narrative without a Judas. Appreciate the reminder!

There appears to be a reference to one of the Twelve being delivered into the hands of Belial in 4:2-3, and unless the Ascension (or this part f it) is independent of the NT gospels, my guess is that this is an allusion to Judas.

... Beliar the great ruler, the king of this world, will descend, who hath ruled it since it came into being; yea, he will descent from his firmament in the likeness of a man, a lawless king, the slayer of his mother: who himself (even) this king will persecute the plant which the Twelve Apostles of the Beloved have planted. Of the Twelve one will be delivered into his hands.
ABuddhist
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Re: Was Judas an afterthought?

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John2 wrote: Wed Nov 24, 2021 3:22 pm
neilgodfrey wrote: Wed Nov 24, 2021 2:54 pm
Irish1975 wrote: Wed Nov 24, 2021 9:31 am I don't know if it has been noted already, but the Christian part of the Martyrdom and Ascension of Isaiah (3:13ff) seems to have no mention of Judas Iscsariot.
Of course! We DO have a narrative without a Judas. Appreciate the reminder!

There appears to be a reference to one of the Twelve being delivered into the hands of Belial in 4:2-3, and unless the Ascension (or this part f it) is independent of the NT gospels, my guess is that this is an allusion to Judas.

... Beliar the great ruler, the king of this world, will descend, who hath ruled it since it came into being; yea, he will descent from his firmament in the likeness of a man, a lawless king, the slayer of his mother: who himself (even) this king will persecute the plant which the Twelve Apostles of the Beloved have planted. Of the Twelve one will be delivered into his hands.
With all due respect, such an oblique reference, although compatible with the narrative about Judas, could be compatible with other types of betrayal. For example, Devadatta betrayed Shakyamuni Buddha by trying to lead monastics and laity to follow him rather than the Buddha his spiritual master, and tried to kill the Buddha, but did not, unlike Judas supposedly did, betray his spiritual master to an army that captured and killed the spiritual master (although Devadatta supposedly used royal money to hire mercenaries to kill the Buddha). So, my point is that a disciple's betraying a spiritual master can take many forms, not only the form in which Judas betrayed.

As a final point, the language that you quote does not even mention a betrayal, but only the delivery of an apostle to Beliar - which theoretically could refer to the apostle's martyrdom or apostasy without betraying Jesus as Judas did.
John2
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Re: Was Judas an afterthought?

Post by John2 »

ABuddhist wrote: Wed Nov 24, 2021 3:36 pm
John2 wrote: Wed Nov 24, 2021 3:22 pm
neilgodfrey wrote: Wed Nov 24, 2021 2:54 pm
Irish1975 wrote: Wed Nov 24, 2021 9:31 am I don't know if it has been noted already, but the Christian part of the Martyrdom and Ascension of Isaiah (3:13ff) seems to have no mention of Judas Iscsariot.
Of course! We DO have a narrative without a Judas. Appreciate the reminder!

There appears to be a reference to one of the Twelve being delivered into the hands of Belial in 4:2-3, and unless the Ascension (or this part f it) is independent of the NT gospels, my guess is that this is an allusion to Judas.

... Beliar the great ruler, the king of this world, will descend, who hath ruled it since it came into being; yea, he will descent from his firmament in the likeness of a man, a lawless king, the slayer of his mother: who himself (even) this king will persecute the plant which the Twelve Apostles of the Beloved have planted. Of the Twelve one will be delivered into his hands.
With all due respect, such an oblique reference, although compatible with the narrative about Judas, could be compatible with other types of betrayal. For example, Devadatta betrayed Shakyamuni Buddha by trying to lead monastics and laity to follow him rather than the Buddha his spiritual master, and tried to kill the Buddha, but did not, unlike Judas supposedly did, betray his spiritual master to an army that captured and killed the spiritual master (although Devadatta supposedly used royal money to hire mercenaries to kill the Buddha). So, my point is that a disciple's betraying a spiritual master can take many forms, not only the form in which Judas betrayed.

As a final point, the language that you quote does not even mention a betrayal, but only the delivery of an apostle to Beliar - which theoretically could refer to the apostle's martyrdom or apostasy without betraying Jesus as Judas did.


Well, right. That is why unless it can be demonstrated that the AoI is independent of the NT gospels, my guess would be that this refers to Judas. Why else would one of the Twelve be handed over to Belial? We can imagine other scenarios, of course, but Judas works for me here.
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MrMacSon
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Re: Was Judas an afterthought?

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Giuseppe wrote: Wed Nov 24, 2021 6:00 am
neilgodfrey wrote: Wed Nov 24, 2021 12:53 am
Giuseppe wrote: Tue Nov 23, 2021 9:56 pm In Marcion's Evangelion, there is no mention of Judas. I refer you to André Wautier's reconstruction of the Evangelion, where he gives textual evidence about the creator (not Judas) playing the role of instigator, in the Evangelion.
Where is that reconstruction available?
Not only that. There was a pdf before available with the complete text reconstructed. I have saved it and I will post it here.
neilgodfrey wrote: Wed Nov 24, 2021 2:52 pm Look forward to it.
Giuseppe post a link to it in a new thread here viewtopic.php?f=3&t=8643

Here's the link https://ia601503.us.archive.org/27/item ... autier.pdf
(it's in French)
ABuddhist
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Re: Was Judas an afterthought?

Post by ABuddhist »

John2 wrote: Wed Nov 24, 2021 3:41 pm
ABuddhist wrote: Wed Nov 24, 2021 3:36 pm
John2 wrote: Wed Nov 24, 2021 3:22 pm
neilgodfrey wrote: Wed Nov 24, 2021 2:54 pm
Irish1975 wrote: Wed Nov 24, 2021 9:31 am I don't know if it has been noted already, but the Christian part of the Martyrdom and Ascension of Isaiah (3:13ff) seems to have no mention of Judas Iscsariot.
Of course! We DO have a narrative without a Judas. Appreciate the reminder!

There appears to be a reference to one of the Twelve being delivered into the hands of Belial in 4:2-3, and unless the Ascension (or this part f it) is independent of the NT gospels, my guess is that this is an allusion to Judas.

... Beliar the great ruler, the king of this world, will descend, who hath ruled it since it came into being; yea, he will descent from his firmament in the likeness of a man, a lawless king, the slayer of his mother: who himself (even) this king will persecute the plant which the Twelve Apostles of the Beloved have planted. Of the Twelve one will be delivered into his hands.
With all due respect, such an oblique reference, although compatible with the narrative about Judas, could be compatible with other types of betrayal. For example, Devadatta betrayed Shakyamuni Buddha by trying to lead monastics and laity to follow him rather than the Buddha his spiritual master, and tried to kill the Buddha, but did not, unlike Judas supposedly did, betray his spiritual master to an army that captured and killed the spiritual master (although Devadatta supposedly used royal money to hire mercenaries to kill the Buddha). So, my point is that a disciple's betraying a spiritual master can take many forms, not only the form in which Judas betrayed.

As a final point, the language that you quote does not even mention a betrayal, but only the delivery of an apostle to Beliar - which theoretically could refer to the apostle's martyrdom or apostasy without betraying Jesus as Judas did.
Well, right. That is why unless it can be demonstrated that the AoI is independent of the NT gospels, my guess would be that this refers to Judas. Why else would one of the Twelve be handed over to Belial? We can imagine other scenarios, of course, but Judas works for me here.
Indeed. If the most Christian sections of the AoI were dependent upon the Gospels, then you are correct that the referencxe is almost certainly to Judas. But Roger Parvus thinks that the most Christian sections of the AoI predated the gospels (and, if I understand it correctly, may have inspired Paul) - so in such a model, that would be a narrative with no reference to Judas that may have inspired the story about Judas.
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neilgodfrey
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Re: Was Judas an afterthought?

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John2 wrote: Wed Nov 24, 2021 3:22 pm
neilgodfrey wrote: Wed Nov 24, 2021 2:54 pm
Irish1975 wrote: Wed Nov 24, 2021 9:31 am I don't know if it has been noted already, but the Christian part of the Martyrdom and Ascension of Isaiah (3:13ff) seems to have no mention of Judas Iscsariot.
Of course! We DO have a narrative without a Judas. Appreciate the reminder!

There appears to be a reference to one of the Twelve being delivered into the hands of Belial in 4:2-3, and unless the Ascension (or this part f it) is independent of the NT gospels, my guess is that this is an allusion to Judas.

... Beliar the great ruler, the king of this world, will descend, who hath ruled it since it came into being; yea, he will descent from his firmament in the likeness of a man, a lawless king, the slayer of his mother: who himself (even) this king will persecute the plant which the Twelve Apostles of the Beloved have planted. Of the Twelve one will be delivered into his hands.
Yes, indeed. Thanks for pointing that detail out. For context, here is a diagram I made up to help sort out the different views of what's what in the AscIs some time ago for a blogpost:
ascisaiah1.jpg
ascisaiah1.jpg (135.79 KiB) Viewed 1207 times

That Judas references you point out is separate by some degrees from the narrative in the second half where we read that the Devil stirred up the Israelites to crucify him -- a narrative that sounds like it would make an excellent fit for a piece now missing from the Gospel of Peter:
And when He had grown up He worked great signs and wonders in the land of Israel and of Jerusalem, if). And after this the adversary envied Him and roused the children of Israel against Him11, not knowing who He was, ""and they delivered Him to the king, and crucified Him, and He descended to the angel (of Sheol). -- AscIs 11:18-19
The disciples are left untouched in this narrative.
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