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Re: About the Varieties of Jesus Mythicism
Posted: Tue Nov 23, 2021 1:28 am
by maryhelena
Chapter 5: The Roman Provenance of Christianity By Joseph Atwill
Perhaps the often most asked questions by New Testament scholars are who wrote the Gospels and what was the basis for their story of Jesus Christ? One strand of modern NT scholarship—Mythicism—has attempted to answer these questions by positing that the story of Jesus was a myth that somehow developed into a history. While this theory can point to other myths that became history, absent an archeological miracle, it can never rise above logic and speculation because there is no physical evidence of either the proto-Christian religious communities or of the literature that evolved into the Gospels.
W. Loftus, John; M. Price, Robert. Varieties of Jesus Mythicism: Did He Even Exist? (Kindle Locations 1620-1625). Hypatia Press. Kindle Edition.
Is Atwill's theory part of the
Varieties of Jesus Mythicism ?
Is everyone a mythicist who does not uphold some sort of historical gospel Jesus ?
From the above quote I wonder if Atwill is happy to call himself a Jesus mythicist - and that is own theory, via the book, is being associated with Jesus mythicism.
oh well - all very entertaining for the historicists - albeit they have choices of their own as to what flesh and blood Jesus walked the sands of Palestine - at least they keep their Jesus on terra-firma - at least until the shape-shifting end story. The mythicists roll call of varieties runs the whole gamut - Jesus from Outer Space to Roman conspiracy. Not forgetting the Mushroom Tree (not read that chapter yet....)
Re: About the Varieties of Jesus Mythicism
Posted: Tue Nov 23, 2021 1:56 am
by MrMacSon
Chapter 5: The Roman Provenance of Christianity By Joseph Atwill
... that the story of Jesus was a myth that somehow developed into a history...can never rise above logic and speculation because there is no physical evidence of either the proto-Christian religious communities or of the literature that evolved into the Gospels.
Varieties of Jesus Mythicism: Did He Even Exist? (Kindle Locations 1620-1625). Hypatia Press.
That's nonsense. Almost absolute word-salad.
Firstly, that "there is no physical evidence of
...proto-Christian religious communities" applies as equally to historicity as it does mythicism.
Secondly, there
is evidence of literature that evolved into the Gospels: both physical and literary evidence of such literature.
(sorting it all out is the issue)
Re: About the Varieties of Jesus Mythicism
Posted: Tue Nov 23, 2021 5:51 am
by rgprice
I just noticed this thread. I have to say that I would like to put an asterisk on my contribution to this anthology, because it no longer reflects my views on this subject. I wrote that as I was beginning work on the book I'm working on now, but before I got very far into the research. While I don't think I said anything in that piece that's horribly wrong, it does not come close to putting forward how I think the Gospels developed now. I wrote that before understanding the role of Marcion in the development. I no longer think, as I said in that piece, that the writer of Mark was a potential associate of Paul's, and I think Mark and all the other Gospel were likely produced in the 2nd century, though Mark could be from the late first. At the time I wrote this I still held out that Mark was written close to the time of the First Jewish-Roman War, but I'm moving away from that. Anyway....
Re: About the Varieties of Jesus Mythicism
Posted: Fri Jan 21, 2022 9:39 am
by Kunigunde Kreuzerin
Giuseppe wrote: ↑Mon Nov 22, 2021 6:01 am
So also RG Price: as also Bob Price pointed out, his strong focus on Mark from a mythicist POV resembles strongly the old position of an American Mythicist, William B. Smith, the author of
Ecce Deus.
I didn't know Smith. He offered a refreshing perspective on certain points. Thanks for the hint.
Re: About the Varieties of Jesus Mythicism
Posted: Sun Oct 09, 2022 11:56 am
by maryhelena
Richard Carrier has posted a link to his published review of the book Varieties of Jesus Mythicism.
www.richardcarrier.info/archives/21352
A PDF of the review is available for $1.99.
Additional comments on Carrier's blog.
Re: About the Varieties of Jesus Mythicism
Posted: Mon Oct 10, 2022 3:52 am
by gmx
rgprice wrote: ↑Tue Nov 23, 2021 5:51 am
I just noticed this thread. I have to say that I would like to put an asterisk on my contribution to this anthology, because it no longer reflects my views on this subject. I wrote that as I was beginning work on the book I'm working on now, but before I got very far into the research. While I don't think I said anything in that piece that's horribly wrong, it does not come close to putting forward how I think the Gospels developed now. I wrote that before understanding the role of Marcion in the development. I no longer think, as I said in that piece, that the writer of Mark was a potential associate of Paul's, and I think Mark and all the other Gospel were likely produced in the 2nd century, though Mark could be from the late first. At the time I wrote this I still held out that Mark was written close to the time of the First Jewish-Roman War, but I'm moving away from that. Anyway....
I haven't read Carrier's review of the book but I have been interested in his views about probabilities. In my own paraphrase, most theories about Christian origins serve no purpose because they cannot be proven or disproven -- just theories made up to satisfy the viewpoint of their creator, whatever can be contorted to fit the evidence.
I think rg's comment above really bears that out. "There's nothing really wrong in what I wrote (ie it's all still justifiable on the evidence), I just don't believe in that theory anymore. I now believe something completely different that is also completely justifiable against the same evidence."
I want to be clear that is not at criticism of @rg or anyone else. Just an assessment of the value of unprovable speculation in this field.