What defines a text as Christian?

Discussion about the New Testament, apocrypha, gnostics, church fathers, Christian origins, historical Jesus or otherwise, etc.
Bruce.dee
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What defines a text as Christian?

Post by Bruce.dee »

Happy reading to you.

I’m asking for opinions on what qualifies a text or record or account from posterity as Christian. It seems to me that choosing what is and is t is a mere individual choice and doesn’t exactly have guidelines. For example; we have the Book of Mormon and the Doctrine and Covenants, that are not without the theme and and settings and characters of the Christian religion, but would be historically denounced and rejected if proposed to this or the other denominational ministry of Christian Religions.
The Apocryphal works of various saints and apostles, prophets and works that have been banished and removed from the accepted Trith and Word of Christian Religion.
And moreover, the Books of Torah are considered Christian and yet for the vast sum of their texts they speak only in prophetic reference to the Messia and saviour and do in fact teach of practice that was not brought into or carried over to Christianity’s Religion. I would say this proves the Christian aught not to associate the Old Testament with its Religion.

Finally, the continued overreaching arm of Christian association with sacred texts not universally accepted should allow new content to be reviews and judged as Christian material. I would in this event recommend Oahspe for the candidacy, as a good deal more in common than not resides in the text. Judge for yourself, and
gryan
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Re: What defines a text as Christian?

Post by gryan »

Bruce.dee wrote: Sun Nov 21, 2021 10:25 pm I would in this event recommend Oahspe for the candidacy, as a good deal more in common than not resides in the text.
I had not heard of "Oahspe" before, but I see on wikipedia that it is an actual book published in 1882, purporting to contain "new revelations" from "...the Embassadors of the angel hosts of heaven prepared and revealed unto man in the name of Jehovih..."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oahspe:_A_New_Bible

And the book was read as scripture by a non-violent group that called themselves "Faithists" and who founded a community "six miles northwest of Las Cruces in the fall of 1884".
https://web.archive.org/web/20051121201 ... s/shalam2/
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Jax
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Re: What defines a text as Christian?

Post by Jax »

From antiquity anyway it is the use of the Nomina Sacra.
ABuddhist
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Re: What defines a text as Christian?

Post by ABuddhist »

Jax wrote: Wed Nov 24, 2021 11:09 am From antiquity anyway it is the use of the Nomina Sacra.
That seems like a very minor criterion by which to define a text as Christian, focussing upon scribal convention (which need not have even been done by a Christian scribe!) rather than upon a text's content. I mean, to take a hypothetical (but not impossible!) scenario, if an author were to compose a refutation of Christian doctrines and a scribe were to copy it using the Nomina Sacra, then that text would be considered a Christian text according to your criterion - even though its purpose was to refute Christianity.

On a more general level, I am wondering whether circularity might not play a role in defining texts as Christian: they are Christian because they espouse truly Christian doctrines - which we know about through reading texts that we have been taught are Christian.

If the above seem too cynical, consider the modern efforts to deny that Mormon texts are Christian because Mormons reject the Trinity - even though Mormon texts claim to represent the truest Christianity.
Bruce.dee
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Re: What defines a text as Christian?

Post by Bruce.dee »

Jax wrote: Wed Nov 24, 2021 11:09 am From antiquity anyway it is the use of the Nomina Sacra.
That would be more of a common feature wouldn’t it, suggestive of a common standard of writing within a society.
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billd89
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What defines a text as Jewish?

Post by billd89 »

Several 19th C. texts have been cited above. I am examining a well-known spiritual book from the Early 20th C. which is widely considered "Xian" but in fact is not.

If there's no Jesus, Son of God, Saviour of Mankind, died on the cross and was resurrected, etc., then it simply isn't "Xian".

Alternately, but related: examine all the points of the Apostles' Creed. If none are in the work, it categorically is not Xian. I have read many claims The Lion, the Witch and the Wardrobe is Xian; that's strained, make-believe, I think. Others may overvalue the Xian symbolism, however.

A Jew (or Muslim, Hindu, non-believer, etc.) could write a Xian book which accepts the Xian myth, also.

Different example (mine):
What defines a book as "Jewish"? If I can point to and explain a) biologically Jewish author, b) ancient Judaic philosophy, c) likely Jewish motives d) debatable 'Jewish' intellectual orientation/ background/framework/influence, then such a work is certainly Jewish. Even if the Author wasn't a practicing Jew (or secretly disavowed Judaism, their Jewishness). I personally dislike the 'racist' definition I see in the Israeli media, so an Author's 'nominal ancestry' is the weakest point in my list (I think), but others may consider 'born Jewish' (i.e. never converted otherwise) a definitive criterion. I am curious to know what others think, what criteria defines a "Jewish text."

This recent essay is a helpful start.
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DCHindley
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Re: What defines a text as Christian?

Post by DCHindley »

gryan wrote: Wed Nov 24, 2021 7:57 am
Bruce.dee wrote: Sun Nov 21, 2021 10:25 pm I would in this event recommend Oahspe for the candidacy, as a good deal more in common than not resides in the text.
I had not heard of "Oahspe" before, but I see on wikipedia that it is an actual book published in 1882, purporting to contain "new revelations" from "...the Embassadors of the angel hosts of heaven prepared and revealed unto man in the name of Jehovih..."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oahspe:_A_New_Bible

And the book was read as scripture by a non-violent group that called themselves "Faithists" and who founded a community "six miles northwest of Las Cruces in the fall of 1884".
https://web.archive.org/web/20051121201 ... s/shalam2/
The book has come up in a couple threads of this forum starting in 2014.

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=422&p=7095&hilit=Oahspe#p7095

The book was "received" from the spiritual world by means of "automatic writing." The Urantia book is a similar example of this kind of book, although 70 years later in date of origin.

Weird.

DCH
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Jax
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Re: What defines a text as Christian?

Post by Jax »

ABuddhist wrote: Wed Nov 24, 2021 12:36 pm
Jax wrote: Wed Nov 24, 2021 11:09 am From antiquity anyway it is the use of the Nomina Sacra.
That seems like a very minor criterion by which to define a text as Christian, focussing upon scribal convention (which need not have even been done by a Christian scribe!) rather than upon a text's content. I mean, to take a hypothetical (but not impossible!) scenario, if an author were to compose a refutation of Christian doctrines and a scribe were to copy it using the Nomina Sacra, then that text would be considered a Christian text according to your criterion - even though its purpose was to refute Christianity.

On a more general level, I am wondering whether circularity might not play a role in defining texts as Christian: they are Christian because they espouse truly Christian doctrines - which we know about through reading texts that we have been taught are Christian.

If the above seem too cynical, consider the modern efforts to deny that Mormon texts are Christian because Mormons reject the Trinity - even though Mormon texts claim to represent the truest Christianity.
Perhaps. But I believe that this is the only known universally accepted benchmark for Christian texts in the ancient world.
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mlinssen
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Re: What defines a text as Christian?

Post by mlinssen »

Jax wrote: Fri Nov 26, 2021 12:52 pm
ABuddhist wrote: Wed Nov 24, 2021 12:36 pm
Jax wrote: Wed Nov 24, 2021 11:09 am From antiquity anyway it is the use of the Nomina Sacra.
That seems like a very minor criterion by which to define a text as Christian, focussing upon scribal convention (which need not have even been done by a Christian scribe!) rather than upon a text's content. I mean, to take a hypothetical (but not impossible!) scenario, if an author were to compose a refutation of Christian doctrines and a scribe were to copy it using the Nomina Sacra, then that text would be considered a Christian text according to your criterion - even though its purpose was to refute Christianity.

On a more general level, I am wondering whether circularity might not play a role in defining texts as Christian: they are Christian because they espouse truly Christian doctrines - which we know about through reading texts that we have been taught are Christian.

If the above seem too cynical, consider the modern efforts to deny that Mormon texts are Christian because Mormons reject the Trinity - even though Mormon texts claim to represent the truest Christianity.
Perhaps. But I believe that this is the only known universally accepted benchmark for Christian texts in the ancient world.
So the Gospel of Thomas rootless also be considered Christian?
It even has a stirogram - that would count extra- extra wouldn't it?

The answer to ABuddhist of course is: that's a matter of opinion.
Look at the Western Bible, the Eastern one, that of the Coptic Church, and so on.
Like everything else in life, it's just a matter of opinion

Here, eat your heart out: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deuterocanonical_books
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GakuseiDon
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Re: What defines a text as Christian?

Post by GakuseiDon »

Bruce.dee wrote: Sun Nov 21, 2021 10:25 pmI’m asking for opinions on what qualifies a text or record or account from posterity as Christian.
A text written by someone thought to be a Christian, perhaps?

Tatian is considered a Second Century Christian apologist, but his apologetic "Address to the Greeks" has no references to the name "Jesus" or "Christ" (except in the chapter headings which are probably not original to the text IIRC), no reference to "Christians", no Jerusalem, no places or dates associated with Christianity, no Gospel quotes; nothing really to identify it as "Christian" except for a reference to Justin Martyr and a few other hints.

Yet Tatian's "Address to the Greeks" was described by Eusebius as "celebrated" and regarded as "the best and most useful of all his works." Tatian was known as an orthodox Christian who later became involved in heresy.

So I'm guessing that if we found Tatian's shopping list, it would be either an orthodox Christian text or a heretical text, depending on when we can date the shopping list to.

http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/t ... dress.html
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