the Gospel of Philip says 'Chrestian' most of the time, whereas every translation says 'Christian'

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Requesting Kirby to comment on Isenberg's interpretation of Philip on ECW

Post by mlinssen »

Peter Kirby wrote: Tue Nov 16, 2021 10:14 pm
Slightly abusing a post by Peter Kirby from something quite else

Peter, what sits on ECW as Philip translation (http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/t ... hilip.html) is that of the NHL Codex II tractate 3 where Benton merely transcribed and someone else did the translation, just as with Thomas: Lambdin in that case, Isenberg in this case.
And it has the 5 occurrences of Chrestian as Christian - of course

Can you please comment on my findings here? I'd be much obliged

I've also updated my paper (https://www.academia.edu/62211272) with a relevant part of the translations of Schenke, Till, Wilson and that of the NHL: none of them contains the word Chrestian or has even as much as a note on it. And Wilson has the guts to conclude his 'Theology of Philip' with the following words:

Finally, it must be observed that Gnosticism, for Philip , was a religion. Compared with the faith of a Paul it may represent a decline; in the light of Christian history as a whole it may be condemned as false, indeed, a travesty of the truth; but one cannot read the closing lines of 'saying' 125, or 'saying' 127, without a sense that for the author this was a faith in which he found a meaning for life.

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Re: Requesting Kirby to comment on Isenberg's interpretation of Philip on ECW

Post by Peter Kirby »

mlinssen wrote: Thu Nov 25, 2021 1:34 pm
Peter Kirby wrote: Tue Nov 16, 2021 10:14 pm
Slightly abusing a post by Peter Kirby from something quite else

Peter, what sits on ECW as Philip translation (http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/t ... hilip.html) is that of the NHL Codex II tractate 3 where Benton merely transcribed and someone else did the translation, just as with Thomas: Lambdin in that case, Isenberg in this case.
And it has the 5 occurrences of Chrestian as Christian - of course

Can you please comment on my findings here? I'd be much obliged

I've also updated my paper (https://www.academia.edu/62211272) with a relevant part of the translations of Schenke, Till, Wilson and that of the NHL: none of them contains the word Chrestian or has even as much as a note on it. And Wilson has the guts to conclude his 'Theology of Philip' with the following words:

Finally, it must be observed that Gnosticism, for Philip , was a religion. Compared with the faith of a Paul it may represent a decline; in the light of Christian history as a whole it may be condemned as false, indeed, a travesty of the truth; but one cannot read the closing lines of 'saying' 125, or 'saying' 127, without a sense that for the author this was a faith in which he found a meaning for life.

Good work.
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Re: the Gospel of Philip says 'Chrestian' - and so does Codex I (Jung Codex)

Post by mlinssen »

I've updated the paper with the complete findings for Codex I: https://www.academia.edu/62211272

Here's the info that was added to the previous version (more or less):

Nag Hammadi Library Codex I: 15 occurrences that get translated with 'Christ' - and none of them contains a iota
The source used is Nag Hammadi Codex I (The Jung Codex) - Brill, 1985

It contains:

1. The Prayer of the apostle Paul
2. The Apocryphon of James
3. The Gospel of Truth
4. The Treatise on the Resurrection
5. The Tripartite Tractate

There are 520 occurrences of the word 'Christ' in NHL Codex I - and I have gone through the first 169; after that the transcription and translation of the last tractate has ended.
I have cross-checked all occurrences against the index on page 399-400, and (disregarding occasional and slight differences in line numbers) the match there is 100%. The translation invariably says Christ(ian(s)) everywhere, whereas none of the text at any time ever has a iota.
The word that serves as a basis to that occurs a total of 15 times; it is unambiguous 5 times, and 10 times it is wholly inconclusive.
The 5 times that it is conclusive it indeed also is completely unambiguous as it contains an eta, and the remaining 10 don't contain either vowel: not an eta (ⲏ) nor a iota (ⲓ).
A truly faithful transcription would have rendered the remaining 10 as CHR(...)S, and these 5 as either CHRESTOS (explicitly present on 4 occasions) or CHRE(...)S (explicitly present on 1 occasion) - doing anything else is pretending to know what the author(s) had in mind on each and every occasion - and worse, it is based on the dogmatic (and wholly unfounded) Christian "rule" that each of these texts was firmly and entirely rooted in "full and complete" Christianity as we know it today, and thus preceded by Christian writings - and there is not a shred of evidence for that

Here are the results; the leaf numbering for tractate A is alphabetic and I stuck to that, as I did to the leaf:line separator being a period in the book. Each tractate starts with its title, its leaf and line attributes, and its author(s)

1) The Prayer of the apostle Paul
I,1: A.1 - B.10
D. Mueller

There are 2 occurrences of the word that is translated with 'Christ':

A:13 ⲓⲏⲥ ⲡⲉ ⲭⲥ https://ccdl.claremont.edu/digital/coll ... ha/id/2715 (photocopy label I 143, the leaf on the right)
B:10 Ligature: ⳩ - I couldn't locate this among the scans from Claremont Colleges

2) The Apocryphon of James
I,2: 1.1-16.30
F. E. Williams

There are 0 occurrences of the word that is translated with 'Christ'

3) The Gospel of Truth
I,3: 16.31-43:24
H. W. Attridge & G. W. MacRae

There are 2 occurrences of the word that is translated with 'Christ':

18:16 ⲓⲏⲥ ⲡⲉ ⲭⲣⲥ https://ccdl.claremont.edu/digital/coll ... ha/id/2780
36:14 ⲡ ⲭⲥ https://ccdl.claremont.edu/digital/coll ... ha/id/2771

4)The Treatise on the Resurrection
I,4: 43.25-50.18
M. L. Peel

Page 132 has the following text:
I. The Christian
That the author understands himself to be a Christian is made clear by his Christocentrism, by the primacy of place he gives to “faith” (πίστις), and by the authority he ascribes to the scriptures. The “Lord, the Savior, Jesus Christ”[19] is the basis of resurrection hope and the teacher of truth. Having preexisted as a “seed of Truth” (44.21-36), he came into this world, took on “flesh” (44.13-17), and experienced “suffering” and, apparently, death (cf. 46.16-17; 45.25-26).

[19] The text always uses χρηστός for χριστός. Cf. 43.37; 48.8-10; 49.38-50.1
There are 3 occurrences of the word that is translated with 'Christ':

43:37 ⲓⲥ ⲡⲉ ⲭⲣⲏⲥⲧⲟⲥ https://ccdl.claremont.edu/digital/coll ... ha/id/2191
48:19 ⲓⲏⲥ ⲡⲉ ⲭⲣⲏⲥⲧⲟⲥ https://ccdl.claremont.edu/digital/coll ... ha/id/2211
50:1 ⲓⲥ ⲡⲉ ⲭⲣⲏⲥ[...] https://ccdl.claremont.edu/digital/coll ... ha/id/2730

5) The Tripartite Tractate
I,5: 51.1-138.27
H. W. Attridge & E. Pagels

There are 8 occurrences of the word that is translated with 'Christ':

87:9 ⲡ ⲭⲥ https://ccdl.claremont.edu/digital/coll ... ha/id/2743
117:15 ⲓⲏⲥ ⲡⲉ ⲭⲣⲥ https://ccdl.claremont.edu/digital/coll ... ha/id/2131
122:19 ⲡⲉ ⲭⲣⲏⲥⲧⲟⲥ https://ccdl.claremont.edu/digital/coll ... ha/id/2143
132:18 ⲡⲉ ⲭⲣⲥ https://ccdl.claremont.edu/digital/coll ... ha/id/2225
132:28 ⲡⲉ ⲭⲥ https://ccdl.claremont.edu/digital/coll ... ha/id/2225
134:13 ⲡⲉ ⲭⲥ https://ccdl.claremont.edu/digital/coll ... ha/id/2169
136:1 ⲡⲉ ⲭⲣⲏⲥ https://ccdl.claremont.edu/digital/coll ... ha/id/2132
136:11 ⲡⲉ ⲭ[...] https://ccdl.claremont.edu/digital/coll ... ha/id/2132

That concludes Codex I. It must be said that I have looked only for the word 'Christ' - it could very well be that there are ligatures in here which usually get translated with that, yet however get "translated" with 'good' or 'kind' or any other adjective, such as is the case in other NHL Codices: Codex VIII Zostrianos 131:14, 78:22; Codex VII The three steles of Seth 88:23, and so forth

None of these texts can be trusted in any way: every single Nag Hammadi Library text will have to be translated anew by unbiased people - that is my new rule, and perhaps there will appear exceptions to it. But let this be a warning to all
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Re: the Gospel of Philip says 'Chrestian' - added complete inventory of Codex II as well

Post by mlinssen »

I have yet again updated the paper https://www.academia.edu/62211272 - it contains the full inventory of Codex I and Codex II

This includes ALL words translated with 'Christ', regardless of their form.
All in all, in these 2 codices together, 25 times a word is translated with 'Christ'. Only 2 out of those 25 times does it contain a iota

The overwhelming majority says Chrestian - if there is a vowel in the "word". Exact-ish stats:

XC: 7
XPC: 4
XPI...: 2
XP[ I ]...: 0
XPE...: 9
XP[ E ]...: 1
X[P..]: 1

There are 9 instances with a guaranteed ETA, and then another 1 with a likely one in the lacuna. 2 guaranteed iotas, none in any lacuna.
If anyone can help out with other codices I'd be much obliged - but it's blatantly obvious that massive falsification is part and parcel of Christianity

James Robinson, Bentley Layton, Harold Attridge, Elaine Pagels, Stephen Emmel - many 'big names' were very closely involved here...
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Re: the Gospel of Philip says 'Chrestian' - and so does Codex I (Jung Codex)

Post by MrMacSon »

mlinssen wrote: Fri Nov 26, 2021 3:33 am

1) The Prayer of the apostle Paul

There are 2 occurrences of the word that is translated with 'Christ':

A:13 ⲓⲏⲥ ⲡⲉ ⲭⲥ https://ccdl.claremont.edu/digital/coll ... ha/id/2715 (photocopy label I 143, the leaf on the right)


3) The Gospel of Truth

There are 2 occurrences of the word that is translated with 'Christ':

18:16ⲓⲏⲥ ⲡⲉ ⲭⲥ https://ccdl.claremont.edu/digital/coll ... ha/id/2780
36:14 ⲡ ⲭⲥ https://ccdl.claremont.edu/digital/coll ... ha/id/2771

4)The Treatise on the Resurrection

There are 3 occurrences of the word that is translated with 'Christ':

43:37 ⲓⲥ ⲡⲉ ⲭⲣⲏⲥⲧⲟⲥ https://ccdl.claremont.edu/digital/coll ... ha/id/2191
48:19 ⲓⲏⲥ ⲡⲉ ⲭⲣⲏⲥⲧⲟⲥ https://ccdl.claremont.edu/digital/coll ... ha/id/2211
50:1 ⲓⲥ ⲡⲉ ⲭⲣⲏⲥ[...] https://ccdl.claremont.edu/digital/coll ... ha/id/2730

5) The Tripartite Tractate

There are 8 occurrences of the word that is translated with 'Christ':

87:9 ⲡ ⲭⲥ https://ccdl.claremont.edu/digital/coll ... ha/id/2743
117:15 ⲓⲏⲥ ⲡⲉ ⲭⲥ https://ccdl.claremont.edu/digital/coll ... ha/id/2131
122:19 ⲡⲉ ⲭⲣⲏⲥⲧⲟⲥ https://ccdl.claremont.edu/digital/coll ... ha/id/2143
132:18 ⲡⲉ ⲭⲣⲥ https://ccdl.claremont.edu/digital/coll ... ha/id/2225
132:28 ⲡⲉ ⲭⲥ https://ccdl.claremont.edu/digital/coll ... ha/id/2225
134:13 ⲡⲉ ⲭⲥ https://ccdl.claremont.edu/digital/coll ... ha/id/2169
136:1 ⲡⲉ ⲭⲣⲏⲥ https://ccdl.claremont.edu/digital/coll ... ha/id/2132
136:11 ⲡⲉ ⲭ[...] https://ccdl.claremont.edu/digital/coll ... ha/id/2132
.

Is there any hint of any correlation between the use of ⲓⲥ or ⲓⲏⲥ (or their absence) and the use of ⲭⲥ, ⲭⲣⲥ or ⲭⲣⲏⲥⲧⲟⲥ ?

Does ⲡⲉ = 'the', 'thy, or 'your' ?
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Re: the Gospel of Philip says 'Chrestian' - and so does Codex I (Jung Codex)

Post by mlinssen »

MrMacSon wrote: Fri Nov 26, 2021 1:35 pm
mlinssen wrote: Fri Nov 26, 2021 3:33 am

1) The Prayer of the apostle Paul

There are 2 occurrences of the word that is translated with 'Christ':

A:13 ⲓⲏⲥ ⲡⲉ ⲭⲥ https://ccdl.claremont.edu/digital/coll ... ha/id/2715 (photocopy label I 143, the leaf on the right)


3) The Gospel of Truth

There are 2 occurrences of the word that is translated with 'Christ':

18:16ⲓⲏⲥ ⲡⲉ ⲭⲥ https://ccdl.claremont.edu/digital/coll ... ha/id/2780
36:14 ⲡ ⲭⲥ https://ccdl.claremont.edu/digital/coll ... ha/id/2771

4)The Treatise on the Resurrection

There are 3 occurrences of the word that is translated with 'Christ':

43:37 ⲓⲥ ⲡⲉ ⲭⲣⲏⲥⲧⲟⲥ https://ccdl.claremont.edu/digital/coll ... ha/id/2191
48:19 ⲓⲏⲥ ⲡⲉ ⲭⲣⲏⲥⲧⲟⲥ https://ccdl.claremont.edu/digital/coll ... ha/id/2211
50:1 ⲓⲥ ⲡⲉ ⲭⲣⲏⲥ[...] https://ccdl.claremont.edu/digital/coll ... ha/id/2730

5) The Tripartite Tractate

There are 8 occurrences of the word that is translated with 'Christ':

87:9 ⲡ ⲭⲥ https://ccdl.claremont.edu/digital/coll ... ha/id/2743
117:15 ⲓⲏⲥ ⲡⲉ ⲭⲥ https://ccdl.claremont.edu/digital/coll ... ha/id/2131
122:19 ⲡⲉ ⲭⲣⲏⲥⲧⲟⲥ https://ccdl.claremont.edu/digital/coll ... ha/id/2143
132:18 ⲡⲉ ⲭⲣⲥ https://ccdl.claremont.edu/digital/coll ... ha/id/2225
132:28 ⲡⲉ ⲭⲥ https://ccdl.claremont.edu/digital/coll ... ha/id/2225
134:13 ⲡⲉ ⲭⲥ https://ccdl.claremont.edu/digital/coll ... ha/id/2169
136:1 ⲡⲉ ⲭⲣⲏⲥ https://ccdl.claremont.edu/digital/coll ... ha/id/2132
136:11 ⲡⲉ ⲭ[...] https://ccdl.claremont.edu/digital/coll ... ha/id/2132
.

Is there any hint of any correlation between the use of ⲓⲥ or ⲓⲏⲥ (or their absence) and the use of ⲭⲥ, ⲭⲣⲥ or ⲭⲣⲏⲥⲧⲟⲥ ?
You tell me! I think I've done my homework for the day, to be honest. Just went through the patchwork of the Apocryphon of John which exists in various forms in 3-4 Codices.
3 counts of chrestos, and the rest XP, XC or XPC
Does ⲡⲉ = 'the', 'thy, or 'your' ?
Well, you can always check my translation for most Coptic questions. Or you could actually click one of the links I've given and see for yourself

I'm tired, Mac. It's it really necessary to ask these questions, or could you have figured out the answer for yourself?
Or are you just trying to be nice and to get a conversation going?

Patience is not one of my virtues, to be frank
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Re: the Gospel of Philip says 'Chrestian' - and so does Codex I (Jung Codex)

Post by mlinssen »

MrMacSon wrote: Fri Nov 26, 2021 1:35 pm Does ⲡⲉ = 'the', 'thy, or 'your' ?
ⲡⲉ is a bit of a thingy, so to say. It can be the masculine definite article singular, a nexus pronoun / copula, a verb (jump), a noun (heaven) - https://coptic-dictionary.org/results.c ... e&lang=any

But basically, in this context, it always says IC THE XPC, and a such it is typical in Coptic - or not. The god = God, yes - but the definite article comes with everything and nothing really. Countries, people, cities: sites it mean The Christ or The Good or merely Christ or Good? Or just exactly that, IC The XPC?

Truth of the matter is, I lack the Coptic experience to give a solid answer to that. And everyone else lacks the context. And we're looking at 3-4 centuries of history here, and texts from incredibly varying backgrounds and origins - and to be honest, no one can really tell for sure what it means when and where.
But when we just translate everything with Jesus Christ Twyford of how very different it all looks, then nobody is supposed to every notice

Right?

Hey, they got away with it for over 3 decades - after getting away with it all for over 1,500 years.
But if everyone just keeps asking questions instead of getting to find out for themselves, then we'll be back in the same shit in minutes

Correct?
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'Chrestian' in the Nag Hammadi Library: 35 to 2

Post by mlinssen »

Giuseppe wrote: Tue Nov 23, 2021 4:53 am Martijn Linssen has posted a message shared by me here with his permission:

Hi Giuseppe,

I have released my Thomas transcription into the public domain - in Unicode.
But while doing so, it turned out that the Gospel of Philip says 'Chrestian' most of the time, whereas every translation says 'Christian'. Yet that is not all, as they also get juxtaposed; (I've left line <'> demarcation intact, and you'll recognise lacuna <[]> notation). This is all from NHL Codex II:

52:24 - When we were ' Hebrews we were orphans and ' had only our mother, but when we became 'CHRESTIANS we had both father and mother.


62:31 - If you (sg.) say, "I am a Jew,"' no one will be moved. If you say, "I am a' Roman," no one will be disturbed. If you' say,· 'I am a Greek, a barbarian, 30 a slave, [a] free man," no one' will be troubled. [If] you [say], "I am a' CHRESTIAN," the [ ... ] will tremble. Would' that I might [ . .. ] like that-the person whose'


64:24 - If one 'go down into the water and come up without ' having received anything and says, '"l am a CHRESTIAN" 25 he has borrowed the name at interest. But if he ' receive the holy spirit he has 'the name as a gift.


67:26 - This power the apos­tles 25 called "the right and the left." '-For this person is no longer a CHRESTIAN but ' a Christ.


74:14 - The chrism is superior' to baptism, for it is from the word "chrism"' that we have been called "Christians," certainly not because 15 of the word "baptism."

<Yes, that does say Christian>

74:27 - 25 The lord said it well: "Some have entered the kingdom ' of heaven laughing, and they have come out' I ... '' ... ] because [ ... ] a CHRESTIAN, ' [ ... ] And as soon as ' [ .. . went down into] the water he came


75:34 - 30 No Jew [ ... ] 'from [ ... ] ' has existed. And [ ... ] ' from the Jews. [ ... ] ' Christian(s) [ ... ] - 35 these [ ... ] are referred to as ' '' the people WHICH HAS CHOSEN [ ... ] ''

<Yes, that does say Christian. And that indeed say 'which has chosen', instead of 'which is chosen'>

We must drop everything and get these texts translated properly asap, Giuseppe! We've been royally screwed

(Feel free to share!)

Cheers,

Martijn

Thanks again, Giuseppe

I have finished analysing all of the Nag Hammadi Library; all 13 Codices and 52 texts.
The full analysis is in the 37-page paper https://www.academia.edu/62646507/ChrEs ... di_Library

The ligature ⲭⲣⲥ or ⲭⲥ occurs most frequently, which doesn't come to a surprise. There are 147 occurrences of it, and an additional 10 in lacunae - needless to say, it is completely ambiguous in this way and isn't conclusive at all; does it say Christian or does it say Chrestian? Or anything else, for that matter - technically, even Chaos would apply as a possible translation to the second form mentioned

There also are ligatures like the above that explicitly contain a vowel, indicating that they have a very strong preference for its content - presuming that the choice is indeed a binary one, only between Christian or Chrestian, then that fully complies with the findings: all of the ligatures that contain a vowel have either an eta or a iota.
For clarity sake: it is evident that ligatures with an eta are intended to say Chrest(ian(s)). Ligatures with a iota clearly are intended to say Christ(ian(s))

The sum total of ligatures in the NHL containing an eta is 35.
The total amount of ligatures that contain an i is 2
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Re: the Gospel of Philip says 'Chrestian' - and so does Codex I (Jung Codex)

Post by MrMacSon »

mlinssen wrote: Fri Nov 26, 2021 2:14 pm
MrMacSon wrote: Fri Nov 26, 2021 1:35 pm Does ⲡⲉ = 'the', 'thy, or 'your' ?
ⲡⲉ is a bit of a thingy, so to say. It can be the masculine definite article singular, a nexus pronoun / copula, a verb (jump), a noun (heaven) - https://coptic-dictionary.org/results.c ... e&lang=any

But basically, in this context, it always says IC THE XPC, and a such it is typical in Coptic - or not. The god = God, yes - but the definite article comes with everything and nothing really ... [does] it mean The Christ or The Good? or merely Christ or Good? ...

Truth of the matter is, I lack the Coptic experience to give a solid answer to that. And everyone else lacks the context. And we're looking at 3-4 centuries of history here, and texts from incredibly varying backgrounds and origins - and to be honest, no one can really tell for sure what it means when and where.

Right?

Hey, they got away with it for over 3 decades - after getting away with it all for over 1,500 years.

But if everyone just keeps asking questions instead of getting to find out for themselves, then we'll be back in the same shit in minutes, Correct?
.
Cheers. It's an interesting dilemma (or more ie. more than A versus B)
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35 counts of 'Chrestian' in the Nag Hammadi Library: and 2 for 'Christian'

Post by mlinssen »

mlinssen wrote: Sun Nov 28, 2021 8:46 pm
I have finished analysing all of the Nag Hammadi Library; all 13 Codices and 52 texts.
The full analysis is in the 37-page paper https://www.academia.edu/62646507/ChrEs ... di_Library

The ligature ⲭⲣⲥ or ⲭⲥ occurs most frequently, which doesn't come to a surprise. There are 147 occurrences of it, and an additional 10 in lacunae - needless to say, it is completely ambiguous in this way and isn't conclusive at all; does it say Christian or does it say Chrestian? Or anything else, for that matter - technically, even Chaos would apply as a possible translation to the second form mentioned

There also are ligatures like the above that explicitly contain a vowel, indicating that they have a very strong preference for its content - presuming that the choice is indeed a binary one, only between Christian or Chrestian, then that fully complies with the findings: all of the ligatures that contain a vowel have either an eta or a iota.
For clarity sake: it is evident that ligatures with an eta are intended to say Chrest(ian(s)). Ligatures with a iota clearly are intended to say Christ(ian(s))

The sum total of ligatures in the NHL containing an eta is 35.
The total amount of ligatures that contain an i is 2
Once more, with feeling:

The entire Nag Hammadi Library contains about 200 ligatures / words that get translated with 'Christ'.
However, only 2 of those words actually say Xristos.
And 35 of them say Xrestos

Yet there is not a single word in the entire NHL that says 'Chrest(ian(s))'

Only the gospel of Philip has Xristos, by the way.
And while we're at it, only Melchizedek has the full word IHSOUS, and as such it occurs only once in all of the NHL
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