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Evangelion of Marcion (as reconstructed by Wautier)
Posted: Wed Nov 24, 2021 9:39 am
by Giuseppe
https://ia601503.us.archive.org/27/item ... autier.pdf
Judas is mentioned, indeed.
Only, note what precedes the first mention of Judas:
Alors, le Créateur, voyant que le Dieu bon
allait detruire sa Loi, complota contre Christ,
ne sachant pas que la mort du Bon était le salut des hommes.
Il entra dans Juda, surnommé Iscariote, qui alla conférer avec
les chefs militaires sur le moyen de le leur livrer.
Re: Evangelion of Marcion (as reconstructed by Wautier)
Posted: Wed Nov 24, 2021 9:41 am
by Giuseppe
Obviously, the Synoptics have replaced the Creator with Satan as the spiritual possessor of Judas and the final istigator.
Re: Evangelion of Marcion (as reconstructed by Wautier)
Posted: Thu Nov 25, 2021 9:08 pm
by neilgodfrey
I have translated Wautier's reconstruction of Marcion's Gospel. Attached here for anyone interested.
Re: Evangelion of Marcion (as reconstructed by Wautier)
Posted: Thu Nov 25, 2021 11:57 pm
by mlinssen
neilgodfrey wrote: ↑Thu Nov 25, 2021 9:08 pm
I have translated Wautier's reconstruction of Marcion's Gospel. Attached here for anyone interested.
Wautier - Reconstruction.pdf
For someone who so very frequently uses the words "scholarly" and "academic", this is a most poor example of such: no date to it, no version number, no name at all of any author. No naming of source(s), nothing - this sits at the level of gossip and hearsay
Deplorable
Re: Evangelion of Marcion (as reconstructed by Wautier)
Posted: Fri Nov 26, 2021 12:41 am
by neilgodfrey
mlinssen wrote: ↑Thu Nov 25, 2021 11:57 pm
neilgodfrey wrote: ↑Thu Nov 25, 2021 9:08 pm
I have translated Wautier's reconstruction of Marcion's Gospel. Attached here for anyone interested.
Wautier - Reconstruction.pdf
For someone who so very frequently uses the words "scholarly" and "academic", this is a most poor example of such: no date to it, no version number, no name at all of any author. No naming of source(s), nothing - this sits at the level of gossip and hearsay
Deplorable
Oh dear. Sorry the soup was not as expected, sir. I thought from Giuseppe's discussion of it in another thread that it was something people following the Marcion debates knew about and that I was the latecomer.
Giuseppe -- can you fill our disappointed mlinssen in, please?
Re: Evangelion of Marcion (as reconstructed by Wautier)
Posted: Fri Nov 26, 2021 12:45 am
by neilgodfrey
Or rather -- just go to the OP, sir, and you will see the French version. I have added a translation of that here for those interested in Wautier's views. I know it's not a transcription but a translation, and for that I apologize.
Re: Evangelion of Marcion (as reconstructed by Wautier)
Posted: Fri Nov 26, 2021 3:01 am
by Giuseppe
Note how, even if afterall what is proposed as Marcion's Evangelion is a mere proto-Luke, Wautier's reconstruction assumes some passages where the reference to the creator as enemy of Jesus is made explicit.
In Klinghardt's and especially Vinzent's reconstruction there is not the same point made explicit.
Re: Evangelion of Marcion (as reconstructed by Wautier)
Posted: Fri Nov 26, 2021 8:50 am
by rgprice
Would be interesting to know more about his approach. It looks like he's got several sections that he doesn't cite a source for. Is theer a book that explains this more?
Re: Evangelion of Marcion (as reconstructed by Wautier)
Posted: Fri Nov 26, 2021 9:27 am
by Giuseppe
His book is published online here (not by him):
http://hierosolis.overblog.com/comment- ... a.-wautier
What I have found in absolute more interesting is the
explanation about how the celestial Jesus of Paul was euhmerized via a misunderstanding of 'Capernaum' (from a name to mean the lower heavens to a name of an earthly village).
It looks like he's got several sections that he doesn't cite a source for.
what precisely?
Re: Evangelion of Marcion (as reconstructed by Wautier)
Posted: Fri Nov 26, 2021 9:38 am
by Giuseppe
Note how the original incipit of Marcion, according to Wautier (in this influenced clearly by Georges Ory) has Jesus descended in the
Sheol (
=="Capernaum"), freeing the souls there:
The fifteenth year of Tiberius' principate,
Christ, descended from Heaven, appeared in Capernaum.
Having taken on the appearance of a man, he
appeared 30 years old.
Cain and those who were with him ran to him
the sodomites, the Egyptians and others, all
others, all those who had been guilty of
indignities and Christ saved them.
All were struck by his teaching~,
because his word had power
But a demon called out to him:
"What have you to do with us, Jesus? You
have come to lose us".
I know who you are: the Holy One of God.
Christ rebuked him:
- "Get behind me, Satan".
Only after, the Marcionite Jesus
ascended from Sheol (==Capernaum) to Bethsaida, and from there he addresses human people, not only demons:
Ascended to Bethsaida
Christ did not preach anything new there.
Then, people opposed him the saying:
Physician, heal yourself
This explains why the demons know already him (Jesus had already preached explicitly his new message in the Sheol) while he is more implicit on the earth.