1 Cor 10:20, “they sacrifice to demons”

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Irish1975
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1 Cor 10:20, “they sacrifice to demons”

Post by Irish1975 »

Recently there have been discussions of passages in Paul that seem to convey a gnostic/Marcionite opinion of the Mosaic Law (or perhaps the one who gave it).

Probably relevant to this question is a textual variant at 1 Corinthians 10:20, which cites a verse from Deuteronomy—

1 Corinthians 10:18-20
18 Look at Israel-according-to-the-flesh; are not those who eat the sacrifices sharers in the altar?
19 What do I mean then? That a thing sacrificed to idols is anything, or that an idol is anything?
20 No, but I say that the things which the Gentiles they sacrifice, they sacrifice to demons and not to God; and I do not want you to become sharers in demons.
18 βλέπετε τὸν Ἰσραὴλ κατὰ σάρκα· οὐχ οἱ ἐσθίοντες τὰς θυσίας κοινωνοὶ τοῦ θυσιαστηρίου εἰσίν;
19 Τί οὖν φημι; ὅτι εἰδωλόθυτόν τί ἐστιν ἢ ὅτι εἴδωλόν τί ἐστιν;
20 ἀλλ’ ὅτι ἃ θύουσιν τα εθνη, δαιμονίοις καὶ οὐ θεῷ [θύουσιν]· οὐ θέλω δὲ ὑμᾶς κοινωνοὺς τῶν δαιμονίων γίνεσθαι.
Deuteronomy 32:17 (LXX)

ἔθυσαν δαιμονίοις καὶ οὐ θεῷ, θεοῖς, οἷς οὐκ ᾔδεισαν· καινοὶ πρόσφατοι ἥκασιν, οὓς οὐκ ᾔδεισαν οἱ πατέρες αὐτῶν.

The context is that Paul is instructing the Corinthians not to eat any meat offered in sacrifice to pagan idols. For some reason, he thinks it will help his argument if he draws their attention to “Israel-according-to-the-flesh.” I assume that the reference is to 1st century Temple worship, but that might be debatable if the author is criticizing the offering of sacrifices thoughout the history of Israel.

In most English translations, the verse reads “what the Gentiles sacrifice…”. But this variant is rejected in the NA28. They follow Codex Vaticanus and others, and also (apparently) the Marcionite version. The variant with “the Gentiles” is also well attested in early manuscripts, however.

If we omit any explicit reference to Gentiles, it really sounds like Paul is saying that Israel-according-to-the-flesh sacrifices to demons. In the context of the existing, canonical text, it doesn’t make a lot of sense that he would say such a thing about the temple worship only as an aside. Since there are other places, however, such as 2 Cor 3-4 and Gal 4, where Paul seems to put Mosaic worship and pagan worship on the same level, I’m not so sure if something similar wasn’t asserted here as well; or at least was present in an earlier (i.e. more authentic) version of this passage. The whole sequence seems choppy and garbled.

Even with the reference to the gentiles thrown in, it should still make one wonder that Paul employs a verse in Deuteronomy of YHWH complaining that his people have begun sacrificing to strange gods other than himself. It is strange that Paul should quote that verse at all in the course of arguing that the Corinthians should stay away from meat sacrificed in local pagan temples. I’m also not sure why an epistle to the Corinthians would refer to contemporary practice in Jerusalem, about which his church would know little or nothing.

When he writes, “are not those who eat the sacrifices sharers in the altar?” this doesn’t seem to involve any cult of YHWH, since no Jew would have imagined that eating their slaughtered goat after a sin offering would be some kind of “sharing” in/with YHWH himself. The “sharing” concept seems to fit if in fact there are sacrifices being made to strange gods that are really demons; but it doesn’t make sense if Paul is understanding simply the proper practice of the Temple in Jerusalem.

I feel like I’m missing something, and curious what others have to say.
ABuddhist
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Re: 1 Cor 10:20, “they sacrifice to demons”

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Irish1975 wrote: Sat Nov 27, 2021 4:02 pm I’m also not sure why an epistle to the Corinthians would refer to contemporary practice in Jerusalem, about which his church would know little or nothing.
With all due respect, why assume this? A common assumption among scholars of Christian origins (regardless of their views about Jesus) is that Christianity initially flourished within the Greek communities among so-called god-fearers - Greeks who knew about and admired Judaism. Given such an environment, it would seem to me to be reasonable to think that at least some adult members of Paul's congregation would know various things about contemporary practises in Jerusalem - in the same way as I, a Buddhist, know some things about contemporary Buddhist practise in India.
Last edited by ABuddhist on Sat Nov 27, 2021 5:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.
davidmartin
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Re: 1 Cor 10:20, “they sacrifice to demons”

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Well the context is really idolatry and eating sacrificial meat, the brief mention of Isreal is just an aside and he isn't saying the Jewish sacrifices are to demons. He mentions it I think to connect the sacrificial system to the deity sacrificed to, and the reference in 1 Cor 9:13 is rather positive
He's also being accused of eating food sacrificed in the pagan way by his opponents. He rejects the pagan sacrificial system but finds some wiggle room to permit the eating of the meat (so long as you don't ask, it's ok!)
It sounds like the Corinthian's were aware of a problem here and had heard and knew or were told about the Jewish view of such things, with some blaming Paul and other's going the other way and not having a problem with the pagan sacrifices at all?
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spin
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Re: 1 Cor 10:20, “they sacrifice to demons”

Post by spin »

Irish1975 wrote: Sat Nov 27, 2021 4:02 pmIf we omit any explicit reference to Gentiles, it really sounds like Paul is saying that Israel-according-to-the-flesh sacrifices to demons.
No, it doesn't. First κατα σαρκα is often added to make specific Paul is dealing with physical relations, see Rom 1:3 & 6:9. V.18 connects Israel to the altar through participating at the table, ie the table of God, but v.19 introduces the notion of idols which is not relevant to the Hebrew cultus. The table connects adherents to whichever religion the table belongs. V.28 says not to eat what is offered to idols. Unlike the people of Israel, those who eat of the table of idols have sacrificed to demons, not to God. Israel is the standard Paul works by in arguing for his own ritual meals.

Paul is a Jew, bound by all the personal cultic obligations, otherwise he couldn't claim to be a Jew to "win Jews". (1 Cor 9:20) A lot of Jews may fall by the way, but it won't change the implications of what is sacrificed to God and the sharing in the table.
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Irish1975
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Re: 1 Cor 10:20, “they sacrifice to demons”

Post by Irish1975 »

ABuddhist wrote: Sat Nov 27, 2021 5:40 pm
Irish1975 wrote: Sat Nov 27, 2021 4:02 pm I’m also not sure why an epistle to the Corinthians would refer to contemporary practice in Jerusalem, about which his church would know little or nothing.
With all due respect, why assume this? A common assumption among scholars of Christian origins (regardless of their views about Jesus) is that Christianity initially flourished within the Greek communities among so-called god-fearers - Greeks who knew about and admired Judaism. Given such an environment, it would seem to me to be reasonable to think that at least some adult members of Paul's congregation would know various things about contemporary practises in Jerusalem - in the same way as I, a Buddhist, know some things about contemporary Buddhist practise in India.
I suppose. I still don’t see what the reference to Israel’s practice is meant to signify in this context. It doesn’t help his argument.
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Ken Olson
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Re: 1 Cor 10:20, “they sacrifice to demons”

Post by Ken Olson »

Irish1975 wrote: Sun Nov 28, 2021 8:35 am I suppose. I still don’t see what the reference to Israel’s practice is meant to signify in this context. It doesn’t help his argument.
Paul is trying to explain to the Corinthians why they cannot attend feasts in pagan temples, which is what some of them appear to have been doing, without contradicting what he told them earlier that the food is not tainted by having been offered to an idol because the idols do not represent anything real (i.e., the pagan gods do not exist).

Some clever Christians ('the strong') have turned this back on Paul: so if the pagan gods don't exist and the food isn't tainted, what harm could it be eat at the festivals? A modern atheist might take the same position - it can't do him or her any harm.

Paul gives two answers. The first is while it might not hurt those strong in their beliefs (who know the pagan gods don't exist), it might hurt those who are weaker in their beliefs, who might see the strong participating in the festivals, and do the same, and think they are really worshipping the pagan gods (1 Cor. 8.7-13). This would cause the weak to fail in their faith, and the strong who caused the failure would bear the responsibility for that. (One of the messages in 1 Cor. is that you are your brother's keeper).

If we read just chapter 8 it would seem that Paul was saying the only thing wrong with feasting in pagan temples is that it might cause the weak to fail in their faith, but would not harm the strong. But then in chapter 10 he argues that it would, in fact, harm the strong, using the verse you point to:

1 Cor. 10.18 Consider the people of Israel; are not those who eat the sacrifices partners in the altar? 19 What do I imply then? That food sacrificed to idols is anything, or that an idol is anything? 20 No, I imply that what pagans sacrifice, they sacrifice to demons and not to God. I do not want you to be partners with demons. 21 You cannot drink the cup of the Lord and the cup of demons. You cannot partake of the table of the Lord and the table of demons.

His point is that you might not think you are worshipping the pagan gods (demons), but you are participating in a communal activity. If the others around you are worshipping, and you are doing what they are doing, then you are worshipping. You are their partners. That's the way it works in the temple of God for the people of Israel, and that's the way it works in pagan temples as well. The food is nothing and the idols are nothing, but your activity in fellowship with worshippers is something.

It seems to me that Paul has still contradicted himself at least a little bit, because he has moved from the claim that that the pagans are worshipping nothing to the claim they are worshipping demons. But this is typical of Jewish ant-pagan rhetoric. You find both the claim that the pagan gods don't exist and the claim that they are actually demons.

I had a friend that argued that Paul was being consistent because he wasn't saying that the pagans gods were particular demons - that is, there isn't a demon Zeus and another Aphrodite and another Apollo. Rather, when pagans direct their worship elsewhere than to the one true God, they are worshipping dark spiritual forces, like sin or death, in which Paul does believe and mentions elsewhere in his letters. I don't entirely buy the argument, or, rather, I don't think it saves Paul from self-contradiction.

Best,

Ken
lsayre
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Re: 1 Cor 10:20, “they sacrifice to demons”

Post by lsayre »

Did not the Priests partake of a partial of the offerings they present to the flames of the Alter?

Indeed by removing the word 'gentiles' (or Pagans) and replacing this text with the word 'they' the 1 Corinthians 10:18-20 passages do read far more coherently.
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Ken Olson
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Re: 1 Cor 10:20, “they sacrifice to demons”

Post by Ken Olson »

lsayre wrote: Sun Nov 28, 2021 12:01 pm Indeed by removing the word 'gentiles' (or Pagans) and replacing this text with the word 'they' the 1 Corinthians 10:18-20 passages do read far more coherently.
No, I think the words 'the pagans' (ta ethne) might be a clarificatory gloss, but it does not change the meaning of the verse. Paul's shift to discussing idolatry and idols in v. 20 means he's no longer speaking about the the people of Israel, but about pagan worship. His point, to those Christians in Corinth who are attending pagan feasts, is that worship is a communal activity. You can't participate in the feasts and say that you, as an individual, were not engaging in idolatry while you were joined in a communal activity with others who were.

1 Cor. 10.16 The cup of blessing that we bless, is it not a sharing in the blood of Christ? The bread that we break, is it not a sharing in the body of Christ? 17 Because there is one bread, we who are many are one body, for we all partake of the one bread. 18 Consider the people of Israel; are not those who eat the sacrifices partners in the altar? 19 What do I imply then? That food sacrificed to idols is anything, or that an idol is anything? 20 No, I imply that what pagans sacrifice, they sacrifice to demons and not to God. I do not want you to be partners with demons.

Paul's argument is: Look at how we Christians worship communally (vv. 16-17), all of us as one participate in the body of Christ, 'we who are many are one body', 'we all partake of the one bread'. Look at how the people of Israel worship communally: 'those who eat the sacrifices are partners in the alter' (v. 18). 'What do I imply then?" Paul applies the same principle to pagan worship: You can't say you were just eating the food in the temple but were not actually worshipping. Worship is communal and you placed yourself in partnership with others who were worshipping by partaking with them in the communal activity of worship. You cannot claim that you individually were not participating in pagan worship while you have joined yourself to a group of pagans engaged in worship and are doing what they are doing.

Best,

Ken
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spin
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Re: 1 Cor 10:20, “they sacrifice to demons”

Post by spin »

lsayre wrote: Sun Nov 28, 2021 12:01 pm Did not the Priests partake of a partial of the offerings they present to the flames of the Alter?
Yes, they did... in accordance with Hebrew law. There were no sacrifices to idols. All idols were rejected by Jewish law. The contrast is between the table of God and the table of demons.
lsayre wrote: Sun Nov 28, 2021 12:01 pmIndeed by removing the word 'gentiles' (or Pagans) and replacing this text with the word 'they' the 1 Corinthians 10:18-20 passages do read far more coherently.
There's no 'they'. The verb has no explicit subject and can be taken here as a generalisation, especially with the interposed move onto idols. Think of "they say, never talk about politics or religion." Those who sacrifice to demons don't sacrifice to God.
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Re: 1 Cor 10:20, “they sacrifice to demons”

Post by moses »

Off topic question:


"what he told them earlier that the food is not tainted by having been offered to an idol because the idols do not represent anything real (i.e., the pagan gods do not exist)"

is not the kosher and non-kosher thing related to metaphysical? you dont eat this type of meat because yhwh says you show loyalty to him and as community you obey the rules pertaining to types of meat and method of slaughter he chooses for you? If you disobey, yhwh takes away the blessings and brings curses.



essences thought temple was defiled, so it seems that prayer replaced sacrifice:

Whoever praises the most high will be accepted by him exactly like someone who offers sacrifice


Dedache says "keep strictly away from meat sacrificed to idols"

The writers says to (convert?) Do more about the food than merely refrain from food sacrificed to idols.
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