1 Cor 10:20, “they sacrifice to demons”

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Secret Alias
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Re: 1 Cor 10:20, “they sacrifice to demons”

Post by Secret Alias »

Just Google 'Solomon' 'demons' 'bottles.'

For the perspective of a Samaritan see Justin's negative portrait of Solomon.
Secret Alias
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Re: 1 Cor 10:20, “they sacrifice to demons”

Post by Secret Alias »

There is an underlying complexity to the Marcionite material. For instance Justin Dialogue 33 - 35 the argument Justin makes against a Jew:
Justin: And I am not ignorant that you [Jews] venture to expound this psalm as if it referred to king Hezekiah; but that you are mistaken, I shall prove to you from these very words immediately. 'The Lord has sworn, and will not repent,' it is said; and, 'You are a priest forever, after the order of Melchizedek,' with what follows and precedes. Not even you will venture to object that Hezekiah was either a priest, or is the everlasting priest of God; but that this is spoken of our Jesus, these expressions show. But your ears are shut up, and your hearts are made dull. For by this statement, 'The Lord has sworn, and will not repent: You are a priest for ever, after the order of Melchizedek,' with an oath God has shown Him (on account of your unbelief) to be the High Priest after the order of Melchizedek; i.e., as Melchizedek was described by Moses as the priest of the Most High, and he was a priest of those who were in uncircumcision, and blessed the circumcised Abraham who brought him tithes, so God has shown that His everlasting Priest, called also by the Holy Spirit Lord, would be Priest of those in uncircumcision. Those too in circumcision who approach Him, that is, believing Him and seeking blessings from Him, He will both receive and bless. And that He shall be first humble as a man, and then exalted, these words at the end of the Psalm show: 'He shall drink of the brook in the way,' and then, 'Therefore shall He lift up the head.'

Further, to persuade you that you have not understood anything of the Scriptures, I will remind you of another psalm, dictated to David by the Holy Spirit, which you say refers to Solomon, who was also your king. But it refers also to our Christ. But you deceive yourselves by the ambiguous forms of speech. For where it is said, 'The law of the Lord is perfect,' you do not understand it of the law which was to be after Moses, but of the law which was given by Moses, although God declared that He would establish a new law and a new covenant. And where it has been said, 'O God, give Your judgment to the king,' since Solomon was king, you say that the Psalm refers to him, although the words of the Psalm expressly proclaim that reference is made to the everlasting King, i.e., to Christ. For Christ is King, and Priest, and God, and Lord, and angel, and man, and captain, and stone, and a Son born, and first made subject to suffering, then returning to heaven, and again coming with glory, and He is preached as having the everlasting kingdom: so I prove from all the Scriptures. But that you may perceive what I have said, I quote the words of the Psalm; they are these:

O God, give Your judgment to the king, and Your righteousness unto the king's son, to judge Your people with righteousness, and Your poor with judgment. The mountains shall take up peace to the people, and the little hills righteousness. He shall judge the poor of the people, and shall save the children of the needy, and shall abase the slanderer. He shall co-endure with the sun, and before the moon unto all generations. He shall come down like rain upon the fleece, as drops falling on the earth. In His days shall righteousness flourish, and abundance of peace until the moon be taken away. And He shall have dominion from sea to sea, and from the rivers unto the ends of the earth. Ethiopians shall fall down before Him, and His enemies shall lick the dust. The kings of Tarshish and the isles shall offer gifts; the kings of Arabia and Seba shall offer gifts; and all the kings of the earth shall worship Him, and all the nations shall serve Him: for He has delivered the poor from the man of power, and the needy that has no helper. He shall spare the poor and needy, and shall save the souls of the needy: He shall redeem their souls from usury and injustice, and His name shall be honourable before them. And He shall live, and to Him shall be given of the gold of Arabia, and they shall pray continually for Him: they shall bless Him all the day. And there shall be a foundation on the earth, it shall be exalted on the tops of the mountains: His fruit shall be on Lebanon, and they of the city shall flourish like grass of the earth. His name shall be blessed forever. His name shall endure before the sun; and all tribes of the earth shall be blessed in Him, all nations shall call Him blessed. Blessed be the Lord, the God of Israel, who only does wondrous things; and blessed be His glorious name for ever, and for ever and ever; and the whole earth shall be filled with His glory. Amen, amen.

And at the close of this Psalm which I have quoted, it is written, 'The hymns of David the son of Jesse are ended.' Moreover, that Solomon was a renowned and great king, by whom the temple called that at Jerusalem was built, I know; but that none of those things mentioned in the Psalm happened to him, is evident. For neither did all kings worship him; nor did he reign to the ends of the earth; nor did his enemies, falling before him, lick the dust. Nay, also, I venture to repeat what is written in the book of Kings as committed by him, how through a woman's influence he worshipped the idols of Sidon, which those of the Gentiles who know God, the Maker of all things through Jesus the crucified, do not venture to do, but abide every torture and vengeance even to the extremity of death, rather than worship idols, or eat meat offered to idols.
Trypho: I believe, however, that many of those who say that they confess Jesus, and are called Christians, eat meats offered to idols, and declare that they are by no means injured in consequence.

Justin: The fact that there are such men confessing themselves to be Christians, and admitting the crucified Jesus to be both Lord and Christ, yet not teaching His doctrines, but those of the spirits of error, causes us who are disciples of the true and pure doctrine of Jesus Christ, to be more faithful and steadfast in the hope announced by Him. For what things He predicted would take place in His name, these we do see being actually accomplished in our sight. For he said, 'Many shall come in My name, clothed outwardly in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.' Matthew 7:15 And, 'There shall be schisms and heresies.' 1 Corinthians 11:19 And, 'Beware of false prophets, who shall come to you clothed outwardly in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.' Matthew 7:15 And, 'Many false Christs and false apostles shall arise, and shall deceive many of the faithful.' Matthew 24:11 There are, therefore, and there were many, my friends, who, coming forward in the name of Jesus, taught both to speak and act impious and blasphemous things; and these are called by us after the name of the men from whom each doctrine and opinion had its origin. (For some in one way, others in another, teach to blaspheme the Maker of all things, and Christ, who was foretold by Him as coming, and the God of Abraham, and of Isaac, and of Jacob, with whom we have nothing in common, since we know them to be atheists, impious, unrighteous, and sinful, and confessors of Jesus in name only, instead of worshippers of Him. Yet they style themselves Christians, just as certain among the Gentiles inscribe the name of God upon the works of their own hands, and partake in nefarious and impious rites.) Some are called Marcians, and some Valentinians, and some Basilidians, and some Saturnilians, and others by other names; each called after the originator of the individual opinion, just as each one of those who consider themselves philosophers, as I said before, thinks he must bear the name of the philosophy which he follows, from the name of the father of the particular doctrine. So that, in consequence of these events, we know that Jesus foreknew what would happen after Him, as well as in consequence of many other events which He foretold would befall those who believed on and confessed Him, the Christ. For all that we suffer, even when killed by friends, He foretold would take place; so that it is manifest no word or act of His can be found fault with. Wherefore we pray for you and for all other men who hate us; in order that you, having repented along with us, may not blaspheme Him who, by His works, by the mighty deeds even now wrought through His name, by the words He taught, by the prophecies announced concerning Him, is the blameless, and in all things irreproachable, Christ Jesus; but, believing on Him, may be saved in His second glorious advent, and may not be condemned to fire by Him.

Trypho: Let these things be so as you say— namely, that it was foretold Christ would suffer, and be called a stone; and after His first appearance, in which it had been announced He would suffer, would come in glory, and be Judge finally of all, and eternal King and Priest. Now show if this man be He of whom these prophecies were made.

Justin: As you wish, Trypho, I shall come to these proofs which you seek in the fitting place; but now you will permit me first to recount the prophecies, which


I wish to do in order to prove that Christ is called both God and Lord of hosts, and Jacob, in parable by the Holy Spirit; and your interpreters, as God says, are foolish, since they say that reference is made to Solomon and not to Christ, when he bore the ark of testimony into the temple which he built. The Psalm of David is this:

The earth is the Lord's, and the fullness thereof; the world, and all that dwell therein. He has founded it upon the seas, and prepared it upon the floods. Who shall ascend into the hill of the Lord? Or who shall stand in His holy place? He that is clean of hands and pure of heart: who has not received his soul in vain, and has not sworn guilefully to his neighbour: he shall receive blessing from the Lord, and mercy from God his Saviour. This is the generation of them that seek the Lord, that seek the face of the God of Jacob. Lift up your gates, you rulers; and be lifted up, you everlasting doors; and the King of glory shall come in. Who is this King of glory? The Lord strong and mighty in battle. Lift up your gates, you rulers; and be lifted up, you everlasting doors; and the King of glory shall come in. Who is this King of glory? The Lord of hosts, He is the King of glory.

Accordingly, it is shown that Solomon is not the Lord of hosts; but when our Christ rose from the dead and ascended to heaven, the rulers in heaven, under appointment of God, are commanded to open the gates of heaven, that He who is King of glory may enter in, and having ascended, may sit on the right hand of the Father until He make the enemies His footstool, as has been made manifest by another Psalm. For when the rulers of heaven saw Him of uncomely and dishonoured appearance, and inglorious, not recognising Him, they inquired, 'Who is this King of glory?' And the Holy Spirit, either from the person of His Father, or from His own person, answers them, 'The Lord of hosts, He is this King of glory.' For every one will confess that not one of those who presided over the gates of the temple at Jerusalem would venture to say concerning Solomon, though he was so glorious a king, or concerning the ark of testimony, 'Who is this King of glory?'
The idea here is that the Jews understand the prophesies to apply to Solomon but Justin wants them to apply to Christ. But notice that the 'meat sacrificed to idols' trope is in the middle of the extended section complaining about the Jews identifying Solomon as Christ (even an anti-Christ originally?).

The entire argument from Dialogue (with a Jew) 33 - 35 is taken almost verbatim into Tertullian's Against Marcion Book 5:
What had Hezekiah to do with Melchizedek, the priest of the Most High, who himself was not circumcised, yet on accepting the offering of tithes blessed Abrahamf who was circumcised?3 But to Christ the order of Melchizedek will be applicable, for Christ, the particular and legitimate minister of God, the pontifex of the uncircumcised priesthood, was there established among the gentiles from whom he was destined to find better acceptance, and will when he comes at the last time vouchsafe acceptance and blessing to the circumcision, the offspring of Abraham, which will at long last acknowledge him. There is also another psalm which begins, O God, give thy judgement unto the king, to Christ who is to become a king:
and thy righteousness unto the king's son,g that is, to Christ's people— for those reborn in him are his sons. Yet this psalm too will be alleged to prophesy of Solomon. But must not those expressions which are appropriate only to Christ make it plain that the rest also apply to Christ and not to Solomon? He cometh down, it says, like rain on to a fleece of wool, even as the drops that water the earth, describing his quiet and imperceptible descent from heaven into the flesh. As for Solomon, although he did come down from somewhere, yet it was not like the rain, because it was not out of heaven. But I will set out all the more straightforward passages. His dominion, it says, shall be from the one sea to the other, and from the flood unto the world's ends. This has been granted to Christ alone, whereas Solomon had command only of that tiny country of Judaea. All kings shall give him worship: whom do all worship, except Christ? And all the gentiles shall do him service: whom, except Christ? Let his name remain for ever: whose name is eternal, except Christ's? His name shall remain before the sun, for the Word of God, which is Christ, was before the sun. And in him shall all the nations be blessed: in Solomon no gentile nation is blessed, but in Christ every one of them. What again, if this psalm also proves he is
God? And they shall call him blessed: because, Blessed is the Lord God of Israel, who only doeth wondrous things: blessed is the name of his glory, and the whole earth shall be filled with his glory. Solomon on the other hand, I boldly say, lost even that glory which he had in God when he was dragged the whole way into idolatry by his wife. And so when this too is written down in the middle of the psalm, His enemies shall lick the dust,i being put underneath his feet, it will have application to that for which I have both quoted this psalm and claimed it in support of my position: and so I shall have made out my case that the glory of his kingdom and the subjection of his enemies are in accordance with the Creator's design, and I shall establish my further claim that there is no room for belief in any other Christ than the Creator's.
The Dialogue is corrupt. Tertullian likely knows a purer Justin text which has yet to be fully corrected. Justin's arguments against the Jews become Tertullian's arguments against Marcion throughout Against Marcion. But why? Lurking in the material is an understanding that the Marcionite gospel accused the Jews of continuing Solomon's idolatry which the Catholic texts try to obscure.
lsayre
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Re: 1 Cor 10:20, “they sacrifice to demons”

Post by lsayre »

If read side by side with John 8:44 it seems perfectly reasonable for a John 8:44 sympathizing 'Zig' Paul to be implying within 1 Cor 10:18-20 that Temple sacrifice was commensurate with demon worship.

Perhaps what is needed whereby to restore more of a sense of Paul's (or whichever school first wrote under the name of Paul) 'original intent' is to cull out all of the 'Zags', in whatever form they may exist. Zags are likely Proto-Orthodox.
davidmartin
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Re: 1 Cor 10:20, “they sacrifice to demons”

Post by davidmartin »

What if these zigs and zags are just minor tweaks here and there? (Colossians/Ephesians is another story, that could be Marcionite sure)
Paul is basically all over the place because that is what he was like as a person. He has wild mood swings and was never very consistent until he pulls it all together in Romans which itself isn't very consistent either
I think you'd get further if you accepted that and didn't see all his contrary statements as later edits
So one minute he's a pharisee lecturing on idolatry, the next he is cursing the law. I see no zig/zags here, that's normal day at the office for the apostle. He says one thing to one person and another to someone else, he admits it in his own letters
I think that's fascinating. I think you'd get further looking at what he actually is consistent about all the time and see what that looks like
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Irish1975
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Re: 1 Cor 10:20, “they sacrifice to demons”

Post by Irish1975 »

davidmartin wrote: Wed Dec 01, 2021 1:13 am What if these zigs and zags are just minor tweaks here and there? (Colossians/Ephesians is another story, that could be Marcionite sure)
Paul is basically all over the place because that is what he was like as a person. He has wild mood swings and was never very consistent until he pulls it all together in Romans which itself isn't very consistent either
I think you'd get further if you accepted that and didn't see all his contrary statements as later edits
So one minute he's a pharisee lecturing on idolatry, the next he is cursing the law. I see no zig/zags here, that's normal day at the office for the apostle. He says one thing to one person and another to someone else, he admits it in his own letters
I think that's fascinating. I think you'd get further looking at what he actually is consistent about all the time and see what that looks like
Then you should explain how it works. If you're convinced that he's Walt Whitman, containing multitudes and contradictions within himself, you ought to explain what the poor Corinthians are supposed to accept as the apostolic teaching about meat sacrificed to idols upon receipt of this supposed letter? I mean actually reconcile these instructions:
Irish1975 wrote: Mon Nov 29, 2021 3:08 pm
(1) Whatevs (1 Cor 10: 23-33) The earth is the Lord’s, meat is meat, do whatever you want. Just be charitable to the conscience of someone in your immediate social circle who talks about idol meat.

(2) Enlightened but restrictive (1 Cor 8) Knowledge that idols are nothing is great, but charity towards the weak brethren is more important, so don’t eat the meat.

(3) The Meat is Demonic (1 Cor 10: 1-22) Eating the meat is communing with demons; God will reject you as an idolator.
Secret Alias
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Re: 1 Cor 10:20, “they sacrifice to demons”

Post by Secret Alias »

But do the existing letters make sense? In what sense would you REALISTICALLY understand the Corinthian community to be 'sacrificing to demons'? The context is clearly ISRAELITE not Gentile falling away from the true religion:
Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea;

2 And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea;

3 And did all eat the same spiritual meat;

4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.

5 But with many of them God was not well pleased: for they were overthrown in the wilderness.

6 Now these things were our examples, to the intent we should not lust after evil things, as they also lusted.

7 Neither be ye idolaters, as were some of them; as it is written, The people sat down to eat and drink, and rose up to play.

8 Neither let us commit fornication, as some of them committed, and fell in one day three and twenty thousand.

9 Neither let us tempt Christ, as some of them also tempted, and were destroyed of serpents.

10 Neither murmur ye, as some of them also murmured, and were destroyed of the destroyer.

11 Now all these things happened unto them for examples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come.

12 Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall.

13 There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it.

14 Wherefore, my dearly beloved, flee from idolatry.

15 I speak as to wise men; judge ye what I say.

16 The cup of blessing which we bless, is it not the communion of the blood of Christ? The bread which we break, is it not the communion of the body of Christ?

17 For we being many are one bread, and one body: for we are all partakers of that one bread.

18 Behold Israel after the flesh: are not they which eat of the sacrifices partakers of the altar?

19 What say I then? that the idol is any thing, or that which is offered in sacrifice to idols is any thing?

20 But I say, that the things which the Gentiles sacrifice, they sacrifice to devils, and not to God: and I would not that ye should have fellowship with devils.

21 Ye cannot drink the cup of the Lord, and the cup of devils: ye cannot be partakers of the Lord's table, and of the table of devils.

22 Do we provoke the Lord to jealousy? are we stronger than he?

23 All things are lawful for me, but all things are not expedient: all things are lawful for me, but all things edify not.
So you would have it that Paul:

1. identified there to be a common God shared between the ancient Israelites and the 'true Israel' = the Christian community
2. that the Eucharist was = the manna eaten by the ancient Israelites
3. but that suddenly there is this shift:
Behold Israel after the flesh: are not they which eat of the sacrifices partakers of the altar?
What say I then? that the idol is any thing, or that which is offered in sacrifice to idols is any thing?
But I say, that the things which the Gentiles sacrifice, they sacrifice to devils, and not to God: and I would not that ye should have fellowship with devils.
Ye cannot drink the cup of the Lord, and the cup of devils: ye cannot be partakers of the Lord's table, and of the table of devils.
Clearly in my mind the sacrifice of ANIMALS (= flesh) is the bone of contention for Paul and the sacrifice of animals by the modern Jews. The reference to ''the things the Gentiles sacrifice' is a later addition.
rgprice
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Re: 1 Cor 10:20, “they sacrifice to demons”

Post by rgprice »

I agree that as the text stands its looks like a jumbled mess, and its possible that at some point this was accusing the Jews of sacrificing to devils.
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Irish1975
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Re: 1 Cor 10:20, “they sacrifice to demons”

Post by Irish1975 »

Secret Alias wrote: Wed Dec 01, 2021 7:43 am But do the existing letters make sense?
No they don’t. Not as “letters” (except maybe Philemon), nor as the authentic words of one man writing on a specific occasion.
In what sense would you REALISTICALLY understand the Corinthian community to be 'sacrificing to demons'?
I’m not sure what you mean by ‘realistically.’ It bears repeating that the text of 10:20 is just Deut 32:17 (LXX).
The context is clearly ISRAELITE not Gentile falling away from the true religion:
I don’t know if “our fathers” implies that this sermon was meant for a Jewish congregation. But “consider Israel according to the flesh” seems to imply that the community itself is the spiritual Israel.
So you would have it that Paul:

1. identified there to be a common God shared between the ancient Israelites and the 'true Israel' = the Christian community
Some of Paul yes, some of Paul no.
2. that the Eucharist was = the manna eaten by the ancient Israelites
Yes, it is at least a type/allegory
Clearly in my mind the sacrifice of ANIMALS (= flesh) is the bone of contention for Paul and the sacrifice of animals by the modern Jews. The reference to ''the things the Gentiles sacrifice' is a later addition.
If animal sacrifice was Paul’s concern, why does he never bring it up, e.g., among all his ravings about ‘works of the law’?

One of Paul’s many personae has him constantly policing community boundaries and withdrawal from pagan society, e.g. 1 Cor 5 and 2 Cor 6. So I don’t think it’s unlikely that he was concerned about his followers’ participation in pagan feasts.
Secret Alias
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Re: 1 Cor 10:20, “they sacrifice to demons”

Post by Secret Alias »

Whenever I hear a writer having 'many personalities' I bet on textual emendation as the most likely explanation. The whole 'I said that' 'no I didn't' 'yes you did' in 2 Corinthians clear example of that with known Marcionite (cf Against Heresies 3.14 - 16) themes of Paul being infallible and the only apostle. Worth noting that the Samaritans understand 'THE apostle' as a title for Moses in the exact same way - i.e. the one spokesman for the divinity. Can't be 'apostles.'
John2
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Re: 1 Cor 10:20, “they sacrifice to demons”

Post by John2 »

When it comes to inconsistencies in Paul's letter, I try to bear in mind that five of what are thought to be the "authentic" seven (including 1 and 2 Cor.) claim to have been co-written or written with assistance from someone, like Sosthenes, Timothy or Silvanus. Unless these other names were interpolated, there were two or three minds working on most of Paul's letters from the get-go before they were altered by this or that later Christian sect. But even bearing that in mind, I don't expect any one person to always be consistent, but I think Ken explained Paul's argument very well in his post on page one of this thread.

Paul is trying to explain to the Corinthians why they cannot attend feasts in pagan temples, which is what some of them appear to have been doing, without contradicting what he told them earlier that the food is not tainted by having been offered to an idol because the idols do not represent anything real (i.e., the pagan gods do not exist).
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