1 Cor 10:20, “they sacrifice to demons”

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Secret Alias
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Re: 1 Cor 10:20, “they sacrifice to demons”

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Why would this line make sense in the long section:
But I say, that the things which the Gentiles sacrifice, they sacrifice to devils, and not to God: and I would not that ye should have fellowship with devils.
So the ancient Israelites met God.
They had dinner with him.
Just like their forefathers - the Patriarchs - ate with God.
Then the ancients Israelites engaged in idolatry.
Bad Israelites.
Now the Christian community meets the same God.
They had dinner with him just like their forefathers ate with God.
Then they started to worship pagan gods?

Can you point to a single example of early Christians engaging in PAGAN idolatry? Just one example. The right answer is clearly that the idolatry of the Jews (= the Jewish religion) and the Christians falling away to idols = the Jewish religion.
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Ken Olson
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Re: 1 Cor 10:20, “they sacrifice to demons”

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Secret Alias wrote: Wed Dec 01, 2021 1:32 pm Can you point to a single example of early Christians engaging in PAGAN idolatry? Just one example. The right answer is clearly that the idolatry of the Jews (= the Jewish religion) and the Christians falling away to idols = the Jewish religion.

1 Cor. 8.1 Now concerning food sacrificed to idols: we know that “all of us possess knowledge.” Knowledge puffs up, but love builds up. 2 Anyone who claims to know something does not yet have the necessary knowledge; 3 but anyone who loves God is known by him.

4 Hence, as to the eating of food offered to idols, we know that “no idol in the world really exists,” and that “there is no God but one.” 5 Indeed, even though there may be so-called gods in heaven or on earth—as in fact there are many gods and many lords— 6 yet for us there is one God, the Father, from whom are all things and for whom we exist, and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things and through whom we exist.

7 It is not everyone, however, who has this knowledge. Since some have become so accustomed to idols until now, they still think of the food they eat as food offered to an idol; and their conscience, being weak, is defiled. 8 “Food will not bring us close to God.” We are no worse off if we do not eat, and no better off if we do. 9 But take care that this liberty of yours does not somehow become a stumbling block to the weak. 10 For if others see you, who possess knowledge, eating in the temple of an idol, might they not, since their conscience is weak, be encouraged to the point of eating food sacrificed to idols? 11 So by your knowledge those weak believers for whom Christ died are destroyed. 12 But when you thus sin against members of your family, and wound their conscience when it is weak, you sin against Christ. 13 Therefore, if food is a cause of their falling,[d] I will never eat meat, so that I may not cause one of them to fall.

Secret Alias
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Re: 1 Cor 10:20, “they sacrifice to demons”

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I don't understand how 1 Corinthians itself can be used to provide 'another example' of pagan idolatry in Christianity besides 1 Corinthians.
Secret Alias
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Re: 1 Cor 10:20, “they sacrifice to demons”

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'Another example' of Christians engaging in the Jewish worship of demons:
But the baptism of truth is something else; it is by renunciation of the world that it is found. But those who say only with the tongue that they are renouncing it are lying, and they are coming to the place of fear. Moreover, they are humbled within it. Just as those to whom it was given to have been condemned, they shall get something! They are wicked in their behavior! Some of them fall away to the worship of idols. Others have demons dwelling with them, as did David the king. He is the one who laid the foundation of Jerusalem; and his son Solomon, whom he begat in adultery, is the one who built Jerusalem by means of the demons, because he received power. When he had finished building, he imprisoned the demons in the temple. He placed them into seven waterpots. They remained a long time in the waterpots, abandoned there. When the Romans went up to Jerusalem, they discovered the waterpots, and immediately the demons ran out of the waterpots, as those who escape from prison. And the waterpots remained pure thereafter. And since those days, they dwell with men who are in ignorance, and they have remained upon the earth.

Who, then, is David? And who is Solomon? And what is the foundation? And what is the wall which surrounds Jerusalem? And who are the demons? And what are the waterpots? And who are the Romans? But these are mysteries ...
Secret Alias
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Re: 1 Cor 10:20, “they sacrifice to demons”

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'Another example' of the Jewish temple being the house of demons. Haran Gawaitha:
The First Life conceived a plan for gaining a grasp in order to destroy the mysteries of Adonai from the seas and to destroy the plot of Ruha and Adonai which came (emanated) from the House of Ruha; to ruin the scheme of Ruha before the presence of the great Father of Glory and to propagate the mysteries (of the Great Life?)...

... in Tmari, the pure Jordan, and bore witness to the Truth . And in the great Jordan a pure seed was formed... and came and was sown in the womb of 'Nisbai, so that from it a child might come into being, a prophet of the great Father of Glory, praised be His name! in order to destroy the building of Ruha and Adonai.

... in the House which Ruha and her seven sons built I sur- rounded all the district...

...Madai , which Ruha and her seven sons could not reach because on it (were people who belonged?) to Hibil-Ziwa ...

... of the Life, and to propagate a race in the House which Ruha and her seven sons built, so that she should not have dominion... in the midst of the worlds, and he shall be called Yahia-Yuhana, the prophet of Kusta , the apostle... who dwelt at the city of Jerusalem; a healer whose medicine was Water of Life, a healer that healeth... (evil spirits?) which go forth from Ruha and Adonai to destroy the physical body.
Secret Alias
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Re: 1 Cor 10:20, “they sacrifice to demons”

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'Another example' John Chrysostom http://www.laits.utexas.edu/bodian/la-j ... ostom.html:
But when God forsakes a people, what hope of salvation is left? When God forsakes a place, that place becomes the dwelling of demons…. If, then, the Jews fail to know the Father, if they crucified the Son, if they thrust off the help of the Spirit, who should not make bold to declare plainly that the synagogue is a dwelling of demons? God is not worshipped there. Heaven forbid! From now on it remains a place of idolatry. But still some people pay it honor as a holy place.
Secret Alias
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Re: 1 Cor 10:20, “they sacrifice to demons”

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'Another example' - the Testament of Solomon https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Testament_of_Solomon
Secret Alias
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Re: 1 Cor 10:20, “they sacrifice to demons”

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On the one hand then you have a consistent understanding of the Jews worshipping 7 'demons' (= menorah) connected to the prevalent 'watchers' who guard or sit on the seven planetary gates used by the initiates to ascend to heaven often times described as having animal heads etc.

On the other the Catholic text of 1 Corinthians speaking in seemingly 'hyperbolic' terms of Christians going over to the PAGAN* worship of demons when we know full well that there was an early Marcionite claim that Catholics stole THEIR original letters of Paul in order to make them more 'friendly' (= less antagonistic) with Judaism.

Not hard to connect the dots to the right answer.

Pre-Catholic Christianity understood Judaism to be the religion of the 7 angelic watchers. Not hard to see why.

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Ken Olson
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Re: 1 Cor 10:20, “they sacrifice to demons”

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Secret Alias wrote: Wed Dec 01, 2021 2:13 pm I don't understand how 1 Corinthians itself can be used to provide 'another example' of pagan idolatry in Christianity besides 1 Corinthians.
I think this was my first reply to Secret Alias in well over a year. I have avoided responding to him because it's a waste of time. His reply here may give other readers some idea of why.

Secret Alias asked for 'a single example of early Christians engaging in PAGAN idolatry?' and I gave one. Then he protests that isn't 'another example' of Christians engaging in pagan idolatry besides 1 Corinthians and puts 'another example' in quotation marks as though that is what he had asked for, which it is not.

I am not being merely pedantic here. SA proposes that we should read 1 Cor. 10.20 as referring back to v.18, that the 'they' in the text refers to the people of Israel in v.18.

18 Consider the people of Israel; are not those who eat the sacrifices partners in the altar? 19 What do I imply then? That food sacrificed to idols is anything, or that an idol is anything? 20 No, I imply that what [they/] pagans sacrifice, they sacrifice to demons and not to God. I do not want you to be partners with demons.

I think he's wrong to read it that way, as I think Paul gives two examples of worship, describing Christian worship in 10.16-17 and Jewish worship in 10.18, followed by a transitional verse 10.19 in which he draws out an implication about what constitutes worship and applies it to pagan idolatrous worship in v. 20 (if you're with a bunch of people worshipping and you're doing what they're doing, you're a worshipper too). But SA's reading is at least a possible reading of v. 10.20, if a weak and un-necessary one.

But then we have the example of Christians eating in the temple of an idol in 1 Cor. 8:

1 Cor. 8.9 But take care that this liberty of yours does not somehow become a stumbling block to the weak. 10 For if others see you, who possess knowledge, eating in the temple of an idol, might they not, since their conscience is weak, be encouraged to the point of eating food sacrificed to idols?

It is not an example from ANOTHER source, but it is a CLEAR example of Paul dealing with the problem of Christians engaging in pagan idolatry in Corinth. Since in 1 Corinthians Paul is responding to a letter some of the Corinthians wrote him asking him to address problems that have arisen in the Corinthian church, we must assume this is most probably in Corinth. It is not plausible to argue that Paul is talking about a Jewish temple where sacrifice is performed in Corinth, and scarcely more plausible to think Paul is referring to weak and strong members of the Corinthian church having made a pilgrimage to Jerusalem and the event having taken place there. The overwhelmingly probable implication is that Paul is referring to this occurring in Corinth.

So SA wants to contest my reading of 1 Cor. 10.20 and say it refers to Jews. But I do not believe he has a plausible alternative reading for 1 Cor. 8.9-10. It is a clear example of the problem of Christians eating meat offered to idols in a pagan temple - whether they thought what they were doing constituted worship or not, Paul thinks it does (which is the point of chapter 10).

There is an extremely plausible historical context in which this problem can be understood. Paul's converts are recent. They are Corinthians, and in all probability participated in the temple feasts in Corinth before Paul came and persuaded them to accept Christianity. For the poorer members of the church, the temple feasts (i.e, eating the sacrificial animals provided by rich donors) may well have been their main source of meat. They were also one of the major social occasions in the city, where the people of the city came together as a group. Paul had told the Corinthian converts that they did not have to withdraw from the larger society in which they lived and obey the Mosaic laws, dietary or otherwise. He told them food is just food and that idols are just material objects, not gods. Some of them clearly interpreted this to mean that they did not have to stop attending feats, because the food that is served there is just food and the idols are just inanimate objects. They inferred that attending the feasts could do them no harm.

This is actually a rational interpretation of what Paul had said about food and idols, but Paul had clearly not foreseen that his Christian converts would interpret what he said this way (some did not, which is why they wrote to him about it) and continue to take part in pagan feasts, which he considers to be worship, and he objects that those who participate in the feasts will harm both other members of the church (in chapter 8) and themselves (chapter 10).

SA has gone on to give examples of Christians accusing Jews of idolatry from outside 1 Corinthians to support his argument that v 10.20 is referring to Jews. However, we have a clear example of Christians eating idol meat in chapter 8, and one black swan falsifies the proposition that all swans are white. I submit that it makes more sense to interpret chapter 10 in the context of chapter 8 (I think Paul is making a single extended argument in chapters 8-10) in the same work than to go outside 1 Corinthians to interpret 1 Cor. 10.20.

I don't expect that SA will accept this argument or even represent it fairly and try to answer it in its strongest form. His previous record suggests he will instead mock it (and me) and evade responding the actual point being made.

Best,

Ken
Last edited by Ken Olson on Wed Dec 01, 2021 4:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Secret Alias
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Re: 1 Cor 10:20, “they sacrifice to demons”

Post by Secret Alias »

I have avoided responding to him because it's a waste of time.
That's very charitable of you to say. But I guess you have a lot of time to waste given your field of expertise. Brotlose kunst as my father used to say.
Secret Alias asked for 'a single example of early Christians engaging in PAGAN idolatry?' and I gave one.
Yes of course I am trying to determine if the 'pagan idolatry' of the Catholic recension is original or has a historical precedent and you cite ... 1 Corinthians again. We can see how logical rigor is not necessarily a part of the modern academic.
SA proposes that we should read 1 Cor. 10.20 as referring back to v.18
I can see why you became a 'professional academic.' If you had a real job you'd be fired by now. Now for the 4th time. I am proposing:

1. the Catholic recension of 1 Corinthians is a falsified version of the Marcionite original (which is unfortunately lost)
2. while we don't have the Marcionite original in our possession we know that the Marcionites would have held a position more similar to the Testimony of Truth (a Christian document), the Haran Gawaitha and the Testament of Solomon regarding Judaism as an idolatrous religion infiltrating and corrupting the 'true religion'

That's it. You started the rudeness. I didn't. I am saying we don't need 'textual precedent' - we don't need to have the Marcionite text in our hands - to understand what 'sacrifice to demons' meant because of cultural precedent (i.e. what the Testimony of Truth, the Haran Gawaitha and the Testament of Solomon establish as 'Jewish demon worship' in the Jerusalem temple). It would be nice to have a copy of Paul's original letters or his original written gospel that were in the possession of the Marcionite churches. But to favor a falsified collection over an original merely because of its Zuhandenheit is a travesty, a travesty perpetuated by people of limited imagination and cultural sensibility.

In other words, the fact that there are NO EXAMPLES of pagan idolatry in early Christianity (outside of 1 Corinthians) and that there are AMPLE examples of anti-Jewish 'Israelite traditions' presuming 'Jewish idolatry' in the temple we can (a) presume to know how the Marcionite text read and (b) acknowledge the originality of the 'Jewish idolatry' reading EVEN WITHOUT ANY TEXTUAL PRECENDENTS. Because 'Gentile idolatry' never happened in any known early Christian community and we know that 'Jewish Christianity' was a thing as well as Pauline-Marcionite criticism of such Judaizing in Christianity.

I know that's not how you 'professional academics' do it. But that's how we do it here in the Wild West of academia.
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